Colic

[joandlad]

wrt to the bran/calcium thing it's to do with the phytate in the bran inhibiting the absorption of calcium. Adding extra calcium (ie limestone flour) won't help much as the body can't absorb it because of the phytate in the wheat bran. We now know the real reason behind the popularity of bran mashes years ago. It's because they seemed to clear out the horses digestive system - which people used to believe was a good thing. Problem is that their system is different to ours in that they digest using bacteria and sudden changes in feed can kill off this bacteria. So what we used to believe was giving them a good old clear out was actually wiping out the bacteria that they need to digest their food! This is the reason why we're always told to change feeds gradually.

[jane]

Going on from what Joandlad said......Many years ago we had a horse who just went down hill, looked really poor and couldn't put weight on. The vet came and got us to make a bucket of water and horse poo, from another horse on the yard who was fine, we then filtered it through a cloth so it was just liquid poo. He used a tube and a funnel to pour this into the horses stomach, the idea to add good bacteria back into his gut. It certainly worked for this horse and I recently read of trials for a human equivalent!

[fimacg]

Jane - ooo yuck! but can understand where they are coming from

[racaille]

Don't care what they say ... I'm not drinking someone else's poo!!!!!!!!

[Jen]

interesting as it is i have to say i agree with racs and will NOT being drinking poo, be it from horse, human or other species!!!

i am also on the get the dentist theory, as said before if he cant chew the hay then he cant digest it leading to the impaction.

[brigadier]

DB just caught up again and Im so pleased you are getting dentist, seriously vets are usually quire poor at doing teeth, they dont spend long enough training at it, dentists now have to train and be registered etc, not all are fantastic but they usually get them level so the horse can eat. Depending on the shape of his mouth he may need a visit every six months or so. Do let us know how it goes. You must be at your wits end!

[fimacg]

Will she look at casper too whilst she is there?

[dannyboy]

The dentist I had booked to come on Saturday rang me yesterday to say that she had a cancellation and could come today instead which is brilliant. I have booked her to do Murphy & Casper.
I'm not sure about the dentists experience but I have heard that she only done a short course in New Zealand. Flea had used her a few years back with her horse Connie and found her OK.

The dentist from Wales that my farrier suggested is due to come to N.Ireland on the 6th Feb so if I don't have much luck today I think I'm going to try him.

My vet did not take the news very well yesterday. He said he had much more experience of dealing with dentristry than her and that she couldn't sedate him etc. I explained that I was recommended her and as she had been lovely on the phone, very helpful and as I had already booked her I didn't like to cancel. I hate conflict but I stood my ground. I just hope she's good!

I spoke to a feed merchant early yesterday morning and bought hi-fibre nuts (spillars). I soak them and Murphy is eating them well.

[dannyboy]

Jan 24, 2012 18:27:41 GMT racaille said:

Don't care what they say ... I'm not drinking someone else's poo!!!!!!!!

PMSL - anyone want some ;D

[scattymare]

Good on you for standing your ground with the vets DB. I'll be quite honest, he sounds like a d*ck!! But you don't always have a choice do you.
My vets won't actually do any more than a small rasp and recommend a dentist instead as they admit to the lack of experience and training they have. No a dentist can't sedate but if thats really necessary (vets seem to always sedate whether needed or not!) then you get the vet and dentist together like we had to with Harvey. Simples.
Fibre nuts soaked will do him good - don't forget, he's a big boy so the amount of hay he'd normally get through needs to be substituted. It may look like your feeding an awful lot but so long as its all a fibre based cereal free type of feed let him munch away.
Hope all goes well today.

[fimacg]

Just caught up and echo the above, well done for standing your ground. I am so pleased he is eating his hi fibre nuts well.

[ceej]

how did it go?

[dannyboy]

His teeth weren't in good shape. On the left side, one tooth was too high and she thinks causing him pain as she noticed instantly he was eating to the right side of his mouth. A few sharp to file down and jobs a goodin. His mouth could be tender for a few days. 6 month check-up booked in.
I gave him soaked hay but I noticed that its still dropping from his mouth, I'll continue with the soaked nuts anyway so at least I know he's getting something.
Casper had a few little sharp teeth but other than that, grand.

Neither needed sedated and she said they were complete gentlemen.

I was taking Murphy out in-hand this morning for a little grass and Casper jumped the electric fence to munch some too easy peasy mum he has a lovely little jump and cleared it by some!!

[brigadier]

Thats brilliant DB, now at least you know that he can start eating properly once the soreness has worn off- he must have sore cheeks, poor lad. As a general rule of thumb a 16hh horse needs around 30lbs of forage per day- if on rest this should be hay or hay substitute. Your vet does sound like a real tool!

[duckles]

That is great news DB - Murphy will feel so much happier now. Poor fellow, that tooth may have been causing him pain for ages.
Impressed at cheeky little Casper:-)

[ceej]

good news! At least you will know now whether it was that or something else. I still really rate the linseed and fenugreek on top of fibre nuts though (and or a good general purpose supplement - he wont be getting all he needs from the nuts alone if he is already a bit lacking and older)

I must say you are doing everything you can for him DB, he is very lucky to have you. xx

[dannyboy]

Thanks Ceej. I just got a reply to my e-mail from Allen & Page. I've copied for you all to see. She too suggests linseed oil as you suggest. She is also sending me a sample of the calm and condition mix.

Calm & Condition has been designed for horses that need help to put on or maintain their weight and condition and is also ideal for hard working horses. Calm & Condition is barley and molasses free making it lower in starch and sugar than traditional conditioning feeds. The energy that Calm & Condition supplies comes from its high fibre and oil content which is an excellent source of slow release, stamina giving energy. This type of energy is made available to the horse much more steadily. Due to its lower starch content Calm & Condition is much 'friendlier' on the digestive system than higher starch mixes and also contains probiotics to help maintain a healthy gut. Linseed and soya oils provide sources of Omega 3 and 6 oils.

For a horse of Murphy’s size and weight, between 1.5-2kg of Calm & Condition (dry weight) would be appropriate to feed per day. As it is barley and molasses free and has lower starch and sugar levels than cereal based equivalents, it is easier on the horse’s digestive system. This means the horse is more likely to be able to fully utilise the nutrition from the feed and gain maximum benefits, enabling him to maintain a better weight. The fact the feed has low starch and sugar levels is also important in light of Murphy’s recent colic episode; keeping these levels low and avoiding cereal grains and molasses where possible can be a benefit for horses who have suffered from colic. Feeding little as often will also be beneficial, as all horses should be fed in a way to emulate the natural feeding pattern of trickle feeding for up to 18 hours a day, so splitting down the feeds should be continued. I suggest considering changing your chaff, to one that is unmolassed; Honeychop Horse Feeds produce a Chopped Oat Straw or Ossi-Chaff produce Plain & Simple, which are both unmolassed. As long as Murphy has good teeth, these chaffs should be fine to feed.

Ad lib hay should be provided, again to ensure a constant flow of fibre through his system. If he continues to be fussy and not eat a good amount of hay, this will not help him maintain a good weight. In this case, Fast Fibre could be used to top us his fibre provision and again is a soaked feed and is easy to digest – details attached.

For reference, 1 level Stubbs scoop weighs the equivalent to 1.5kg of Calm & Condition (dry weight). As it contains a proportion of unmolassed sugar beet, it does require soaking before feeding; 1 part feed should be mixed with 2 parts water and left for 5-10 minutes. Any changes to the diet should be done gradually, over a period of 7-10 days.

Additional linseed oil is also a brilliant way of providing calories, in a way that should be non-heating. Linseed oil is much closer to the horses natural diet rather than corn or soya oil, as it is high in omega 3 which is an anti-inflammatory. Other oils are higher in omega 6, which can have the opposite effect. You could safely feed up to 500ml of oil per day, for example. This said, when feeding large amounts of oil, a vitamin E supplement should be fed, to act as a antioxidant – free radicals are produced during oil breakdown, which can potentially be harmful to cells. The vitamin E acts as an antioxidant and ‘mops up’ the free radicals, rendering them harmless. The level of oil should be increased gradually, over a couple of weeks

Where is the best place to buy Fenugreek & linseed oil? The supermarket or can you buy it in bulk for cheaper?

[solomon]

Pete has had calm and condition, he loves the stuff.

[ceej]

Yeah Willow gets it in the winter too when his weight drops - he loves it too - thats a big old scoop tho- it soaks to be about 3 times its dry size!! (is
a stubbs scoop the big round traditional ones?) Willow gets about a large mug full twice a day. But then he is 13.2!! And i guess she means a scoop per day over a few feeds so actually not that bad.

I just bought linseed and fenugreek from ebay for a few pounds - dont know yet if its as good as the equus health one (which they sell at my local feed merchants)

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310272338076?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

[scattymare]

I can't rate A&P feeds highly enough. All ours are fed Fast Fibre (except Harvey as it gives him the squits!) as a fibre top up.
It does look a lot when it swells but remember that 2/3rds of it will be water content.

[racaille]

I'm so glad he's on the mend DB. You can feel very proud of yourself, having got him through such a nasty episode.

And I must say those A&P people seem very on the ball.

[joandlad]

When my old boy couldn't eat hay anymore i used 2 feed him massive buckets of the following: unmollassed sugar beet, luciebix (freeze dried lucerne that u soak up), grass pellets and instant linseed. Try 2 get hold of the actual linseed seeds (cooked or micronised) if u can. It's better than the oil which can b from furniture polish manufacturing. Whatever u feed just make it well soaked so it softens up and doesn't need much chewing. Lads was in a field on his own so i used 2 turn him out with a big bucket of this feed in the mornings and he would pick away at it during the day. He had another bucket in his stable at night. He looked great on it and had lots of energy. X

[ceej]

Jan 29, 2012 14:33:41 GMT joandlad said:

Try 2 get hold of the actual linseed seeds (cooked or micronised) if u can. It's better than the oil which can b from furniture polish manufacturing. X

The equus health one is actual cooked linseed seeds, rather than oil - not too expensive either

[ceej]

How is he getting on DB?

[dannyboy]

Ceej, he seems better in himself but its a bit hit and miss with the hay. Some mornings he's eaten it all and the next only half his haynet. Not sure of the reason but I notice he's eating it during the day and his teeth don't seem to be giving him any problems. I'm still giving him the high fibre oats and I got that allen & page calm & condition so perhaps he's getting more than enough. Just got the linseed & fenugreek (sp) in the post today so I'll be adding that to his feed too although I noticed that the calm & condition already has it in it.

He's got some cuts on his legs from when he was rolling with the colic and they are still sore. I've been bathing them and putting on sudocream, I see signs of improvement but its taking forever to heal.