Colic

[duckles]

Poor Murphy- hope the poor wee chap improves today. This is very tough on you DB - please God, he will pick up this morning. Take care

[dannyboy]

Fi, I'm at work so am unable to check for rumblings. I do know the vet sounded him for approx 20mins. My mums OH is going up now to check on him so I'll get him to sound him and I'll find out if any poo etc: He gave Murphy something whisked into his water (that he pumped into him) to help soften the poo as far as I know.

Rac, the vet is reluctant to give the paraffin as it can lead to complications (rupture's etc:) , especially at Murphy's age.


Ceej, he hasn't tubed him to relieve stomach gasses but he did do a rectal which relieved him of quite a bit.

I am reluctant to get another vet just yet as no horse specialists in my area and he is familiar with Murphy, although I am adamant that if he doesn't come today and give the paraffin I'm going to get a second opinion. The nearest specialist vet to me is in Hillsborough, near belfast (2hr drive) and I'm not sure Murphy could travel.

[ceej]

Good to hear he did have one pump of laxitive and gas relieved

hope it goes well today DB...keep us posted love - thinking of ya xx

[scattymare]

Come on Murphy. Have a poo!!

[dannyboy]

I'm sure its difficult keeping up with me

The vet came this afternoon and brought another vet to assist and give a second opinion.

They both sounded him, gave rectal examinations and generally looked around him. Whilst doing the rectal examination, Murphy poo'ed, this was more wet and mushy and showed signs of hay. When the vet examined it, it was soaking so he thinks the blockage (colic) has cleared with the pumped water although can't be sure completely.
Also whilst doing the rectal exam they both felt a growth to the left hand side, something he had mistaken initially as a compacted area. He thinks it could be a growth i.e. re: melanoma, adenoma formation (benign growth) or something else.

He administered 2nd dose of antibiotics & painkillers and took blood for testing. He thinks there is a strong chance it could be Cushings disease but the blood test will help clarify this.

I've given him another feed, mixed with sunflower oil and bran and he's lapped it up. I held out a handful of grass & hay but he just smells it and either pushes it away or chews (his cud) like a cow and then it drops out.

Fi, if i remember right your Fargo had Cushings? Can you tell me what his symptoms were. I know it can vary from horse to horse but it seems to link drinking large volumns. I've read up on Cushings and Murphy does sound like he has many of the symptoms but the long sweaty hair (lack of moulting) bit is confusing me as he doesn't have this. It does say though that having lice (which he had only a couple of weeks ago) is common.

I'm so confused now. The vet is coming at 8pm tonight if he hasn't poo'ed again to probably administer the paraffin. He advised he was reluctant to administer this due to Murphy's respiritory problems in the past.

modified to add that the vet said he was jaundiced.

[fleabitten]

holy god poor horsey! the blood tests should come back pretty quickly, so hopefully its not cushings!! but if anything is wrong that should show it up and maybe we will have a clearer picture then.

im kinda confused too so i dont blame you DB lol. i seriously hope that all it is, is just a blockage and once it goes that will be it.

has he brightened up any? at least he is eating a wee bit, thats encouraging.

[ceej]

well it sounds positive that he pooed a bit!! and the laxatives are helping

Not heard of cushings causing impacted colic (although harry did get impacted colic because all he could eat was hay) - Harry had cushings but for him the worst symptom of course was laminitis and thats what he couldnt get over. Cushings is a growth (they have never agreed whether it is a tumour that causes the problems, or the overactive glad that causes the tumour)caused by excessive productionof hormones from the pituitory gland that caused various symptoms - not all horses get all symptoms so you cannot rely on the hair growth (Harry's was not abnormal yet he had very sever other symptoms, whereas Willow also has it but for him it simply means a longer coat that doesnt shed and I have to clip him, he doesnt drink excessively or get anything else except a surpressed immune system.

The various symptoms are all or any mix of the below (and I have put which ones Harry and willow got to show how different it can be):

Drinking excessively (Harry would drink about 4 buckets a day)
Laminitis (Harry)
Long or wavy coat and/OR coat that takes longer to shed in the spring than other horses (Willow)
Fatty pads above the eyes, above the rump and cresty neck (harry)
Loss of muscle on topline and belly, causing 'pot belly' look (Harry)
surpressed immune system (Willow (respiratory and eg ringowrm that affected others only a little took him over!and Harry, peritonitis, colic)
Magnesium deficiency (Harry - I gave him a specific lick for it)
lethargy (neither - except harry at the very end but this could have been caused by secondary afflictions)
Sweat easily (Willow - but only when coat unclipped)
Intermittant lameness on the front - not linked to lami (Harry)

Whilst Cushings is a disease that will progressively get worse, this vary's per horse - some take years and years and some get worse very quickly (depending on speed of tumour growth(which can sometimes be slowed with the medication but not stopped) Cushings is only a really problem if the symptoms are a problem - so Willow is 29 and his symptoms are manageable and cause no real issue - Harry was 19 and it killed him via laminitis and peritonitis

They say that every horse will get cushings if it lives long enough.

Does he have any of the other symptoms? It seems a strange thing to be linked with the impacted colic, unless he just thinks he may have that anyway? If so nice to see a vet looking at the horse as a whole, which was a major failing of my vet. If he has respiratory problems this could be due to supressedf immune system (williw is the same) and may also account for why the lice affected him badly. It shouldnt be linked to the lump found in his rectum.

It neednt be a frightening thing unless laminitis is a key factor. Pergolide (not called that now) can be given if the symptoms cant be managed and only in the latter stages can that really fail or where the symptoms dont improve (as with Harry)

Sorry bit long, and it was Fi you asked! But I lived breathed and slept it for a year!

Hope that helps xx

[solomon]

New drug called prascend. Hope he is ok.

[spotti]

Goodness it's been a busy old time for you DB, but at the time of your last post Murphy sounded like he was starting to feel a bit better, so here's hoping he's even better than 'a bit better' and that nothing more comes of this.

As for Cushings, everyone has already covered what I would have said - Cushings itself isn't necessarily terrible, it's the side effects that can create the problems. (Personally I think Faith has the early signs of Cushings but the vet just thinks it's EMS and insulin resistance...surely Cushings kind of blankets both of those, and also other things that can't be explained by EMS/IR diagnosis??? But hey-ho. Right now she's being well managed and seems happy enough being treated as if she does have the disease so I guess we'll have to wait a while to see if any symptoms become more obvious so that bloods etc can be taken and tested...Sorry for kind of going off on a bit of a tangent there!!!

Fingers crossed for the Big Man xxx

[ceej]

Spotti, not to take DB's thread but EMS/insulin resistance is not the same as cushings as they are caused by different things and management of an EMS horse can manage and sometimes reverse the problem (as with diabetics) Cushings itself cannot be improved by management, just the symptoms can be relieved and it will progressively get worst as the tumour grows regardless of management. (so EMS you can manage the condition, Cushings you can only really manage the symptoms) although cushings horses can be insulin resistant due to increased hormone levels - similar management for lami, different medication. EMS horses are generally overweight and Cushings horses are not (although they cansometimes look it due to fatty desposits neck and pot belly).

Do you know what type of test the vet did DB? Its not always best to take the test whilst they are in pain as their hormone levels are increased anyway so it can give a false result (as it did with Harry - he too took the test when he had impacted colic, although his was very mild)...they may need to re-take it when he is better. It depends which test they did - they couldnt do the ACTH test as it can bring on lami, which obviously couldnt be done with Harry.

Sol - thats the one, Prascend; thats what harry was on. It didnt help him but I hear it can be great for many others.

How old is he DB? It doesnt sound like his cushings symptoms are too severe at this stage? Its laminitis that really gets them. Most of the other symptoms are pretty manageable

Im so sorry for you to be going through this. I know how you feel, and its not good xxx

[Jen]

well it sounds like the big man could well be on the mend which is excellent, i just hope that he keeps on pooing and starts drinking properly

[dannyboy]

The vet has just left. He did another rectal exam and Murphy did another very small poo (again wet and mushy) and gas. He still thinks the blockage / colic is more or less passed but will pump more fluids into him tomorrow if still not drinking / poo'ing.

The lump he can feel is so far in he can't make out if poo buildup or tumor etc: only a scan could tell this for sure.

The blood results show that his white blood cell count is low (indication a secondary illness) and that he was showing signs of starvation / malutrition but as he hasn't eaten properly since Saturday this was only to be expected. Nothing concrete to suggest Cushings although could be very early signs (just as you thought Ceej).

We have to try and build him up and give him a boast with supplements and plenty of good feed to give him some well needed energy if he continues to improve.

He does seem more settled and brighter in the eye. Hopefully this is a good sign.

Thanks everyone. x

[racaille]

(although harry did get impacted colic because all he could eat was hay) -

Not sure I understand this Ceej - a hay-only diet is what millions of horses thrive on, including my own ;D But of course a horse with Cushings can get lethargic and this lack of movement alone can be enough to cause a colic.

I'm glad the worst seems to have passed now DB, in all senses of the word Good luck with the next bit, but be careful about feeding Murph up with high energy food - if it IS Cushings then lami becomes a major risk.

[ceej]

|Racs... Harry wasnt moving much as he was sore on his feet, and whether part of the illness or not Harry didnt have a cut off when it came to eating and didnt always chew it properly, just wanted it down!...he probably ate some of his bed also. I dont think a normal horse would have an issue but Harry had so many secondary problems its like his body was falling apart..

I forgot actually that the vet did say that he may have some damage caused by the peritonitis so his tummy wasnt really working properly - harry wasnt on any grass at all though at this stage; yours get grass dont they? Standing still, eating nowt but hay cant be good? My hay was usually soaked so itb had nothing left but I hadnt that week, I had fed it dry - might have just been that change as of course they have excessive thirst.

His colic was very mild though, i found him lying down in the morning and he didnt get up to eat. I immediately thought it was a return of the peritonitis. I took his temp which was normal but called the vet anyway who came straight out - by the afternoon he was eating and pooing and was fine,...more of a gut ache than anything.

Argh there was so much wrong with him who knows...falling apart he was !

Glad to hear he is on the mend DB

[fimacg]

glad to hear that he is through the worst, its your efforts that are helping him so well done to you

[brigadier]

So glad he seems to be over the worst. He will need careful attention now to get over his illness, youve got him this far so can do the rest- Well done! Thinking of you both x

[dannyboy]

Thanks everyone.

I'm currently giving him bran, conditioning mix & sunflower oil drenched in water and he loves it. Vet said to continue on with this but I'm unsure what else I could give to build him up. His coat and eyes are very dull and he's extremely thin, especially around the back and rear end.

Can you give me any advice as to what I could use to build him up? I'm reluctant to give him any hay just yet but I was wondering if I could introduce him to chaff for roughage? Anyone know of any supplements/tonic that I could give for a pick me up?

Thanks again

[scattymare]

Fingers crossed he's over the worst of it and he's just feeling sorry for himself - you imagine being constipated for 4 days, you'd be pretty miserable!

Feed wise, you will need to be careful not to dramatically change too much too quickly as this alone can upset their digestive system. Make any changes gradually over. It is tempting to chuck more and more feed at them when underweight but thats not the answer. What conditioning mix are you feeding? A high fibre, high oil type is best rather than a mix designed for high performance high energy horses.
Fibre fibre and more fibre is the key to a healthy weight gain.
As I mentioned to you before, if you can get Allen & Page Fast Fibre over there that is a great fibre provider, can be used as a hay replacer and you can make it nice and sloppy so he will get plenty of liquid.
When I got P, thanks to the advice on here I switched his feed to Allen & Page Weight gain mix, Dengie Alpha Oil twice a day and a small tub trug of Fast Fibre once. Combined with good grass this put weight on him beautifully over 5 weeks and his coat gleamed.
Smaller feeds as many times a day as you can are also better rather than one large bucket - the horse can only digest so much cereal in one go - the rest will just get passed through and wasted. if you can give him 3 a day this is ideal but practically, only two may be possible.
If he has the all clear from the vet to eat hay then give him as much as he will eat. Damp it down so wet but don't soak for long periods as this will get rid of the goodness (I spend my life doing this for fatty Eddie!!)
You may even want to switch to haylege if not already. This is generally higher in energy than hay and already moist. Just remember that due to the water content you will need to feed more than you would hay.
If you don't want to start hay yet and can't get the Fast Fibre then a high fibre pony nut could be used - you could soak them to form a nice mash.
Supplement wise, since Eddies colic I have started giving her Spillers balancer. I have no idea if these things make a difference - some people swear by them, others dismiss them, but this contains all the vits she needs as well as a pro biotic to assist with digestion.
Alternatives could be a supplement such as NAF Pink Powder which claims to pretty much do the same.

Hope this helps xx

[dannyboy]

Thanks Scatty this is really useful. The conditioning mix is for older horses (not sure of the brand). I'll go and see if I can get some of that stuff you suggest at my local feed merchants

Spoke to the vet on the phone and he's still suggesting chaff well soaked. Murphy was chewing his cud like a cow and then it was dropping out so he thinks there could be issues with his back teeth too and chaff would be easier to eat.
The vet also suggests putting in Golden Syrup - have any of you done this before?

There is no poo again today but the vet said that it could possibly take 2 days to get through his system. He's still not really drinking but I've been making his feed every sloppy so I hope this is helping.

I just wish he would poo properly and then I could start to relax (even just a little bit).

[fleabitten]

if the conditioning mix is for older horses it shouldnt be a high performance type feed and should be fine to feed. i would say that the current mixture you have him on sounds grand. the only thing is that i would get a limestone supplement to balance out the calcium deficiency in the bran.

however, if you want to change it then (although i dont see any reason to upset his feeding routine as you would have to faff about gradually changing feeds etc) what about a mixture of straight feeds? i would continue with the bran but feed maybe a mixture of sugar beet, bran and barley? sugar beet has high calcium and would hopefully balance out the bran deficiency (what does everyone else think of this suggestion?) and the barley for fattening. sugar beet will fatten him up too.

as scatty says, split the feed into as many small feeds as you can per day - if you could do 3 that would be great, if not more. golden syrup would be to make it more palatable - treacle would do the same job.

but i wouldnt worry so much about the hard feed as it sounds perfect, i would start concentrating on getting the fibre into him. you can buy bags of chaff at the feed merchants just make sure its good quality, not dusty etc. dampen it down and put some syrup in maybe a few chopped up carrots or something. perfect.

haylage may be easier for him to eat as its softer so maybe try a small bale and see how you get on (as it spoils quickly).

the others have suggested forage replacers which may be a good idea to try to get him built back up again. my old RI had an old pony (30s/40s) and all she ate was big tub trug type things of mushy fibre stuff - think it was a mixture of soaked fibre cubes and chaff type stuff. she loved it, she rooted around in it like a pig lol!

oh yes i meant to say that we gave connie propell plus to give her a boost/pick me up and give her appetite. we syringed it into her mouth. www.equine-america.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=pro-pell-plus great stuff.

[racaille]

I used to help look after a horse with Cushings which was on bran and oil for years ... but there's something niggling me here: doesn't bran have the wrong calcium/phosphorus ratio or inhibit the uptake of calcium or summat ....? But if your vet says stick with it for now, that's what you must do!

I'm so very glad he seems to be on the mend. Of course, he'll be a bit sorry for himself for a bit but he should perk up after a while. ;D

Ceej - no, mine don't get any grass to speak of (they nibble a few blades sometimes in spring but there are no grassy fields down here. The paddock that I refer to as my 'grass' paddock is mostly dirt with a few blades of scrub grass ;D) All the horses here have hay only diets - winter and summer - fed dry, with plenty of water alongside. Mr T - now approaching 50 has eaten dry hay all his life!

[ceej]

Nearly 50? Bloody hell!!!

[duckles]

It is good news that he is improving. I am sure you must be exhausted by it all. My vet always suggests a thing call colovet as a pick me up. (I hope I have spelt it right). It is sold in the farm shop as well as the tack shop so it is probably easy enough to get. It is quite pricey - a lot of people swear by it but that doesn't necessarily mean it is that good. I think it is iron and vitimins etc.
Murphy does sound a little run down but perhaps it is just the time of year. JB always used to be very thin in Jan/Feb until the new grass came through. (I say used to be as he is now a porker- I am putting it down to steroid injections and no riding) It is heart breaking to see them poorly. Cushings sounds a bit alarming although everyone here is pretty positive about it so, if Murphy actually has it, is mightn't be too bad. I hope you don't have to go through this again or laminitis.

[scattymare]

If your mix is a veteran one then that should do fine. If the vet wants him on chaff then if you can get hold of the Alpha Oil this is a good weight gainer. Otherwise look for a fairly low mollasses chaff.
Re water, can you get hold of some of this www.horsequencher.co.uk/
I tried this when Ed coliced and though she didn't drink it when she was very poorly, when she was back from hospital she couldn't get enough of it. I always keep a sachet handy now for very cold days when they don't want to drink as much.

[haffyfan]

Glad to hear he appears to be on the mend again. But what a worry. xx

ps i think scats is on the right trail with the high oil based chops like alfa a oli...have you had a look at dengies home page regarding what they suggest maybe...they may also list stockists near you?