Colic

[racaille]

Yeah, DB, I checked out the bran thing and I was right in that it has a skewed calcium:phosphorous ratio. It should be 1:1 or 1:2 but bran is 1:12. This therefore must be balanced by feeding alfalfa hay (luzerne for us) which is high in calcium or, if feeding hay, by adding a limestone supplement.

If you don't balance out the ratio, over time calcium is leached from the bones to compensate. I think in the US they even have what is called Big Head disease where bran fed horses developed knobbly heads!

It's funny though, as feeding a nice warm bran mash has been a 'horsey' tradition for so many years. And they do love it!

[brigadier]

Adding limestone flour balances it out, that way you are feeding something the horse loves but is not detrimental to its system, also try and get broad bran- the one that is not over processed- it should look floury and leave a fine film of flour on your hand. Sugar beet soaked also helps balance it but not sure how that would sit with his diet plan. Big head disease was common in England when horses were used for working as bran was a traditional feedstuff and its effect wasnt understood.

[dannyboy]

You guys really know your stuff - i'd be lost without you

Murphy has had 3 poo's today (can't believe I'm actually on poo watch) and has been drinking some water ;D.

I took him out in-hand to munch grass, he's been given the conditioning mix, sunflower oil, bran & garlic chaff in small portions throughout the day and well steamed / soaked hay (approx 4hrs), again in small portions - vets instructions. He struggled initially with the hay but now his jaw is improving. I honestly think the grass (you suggested this Rac) & soaked hay have been the turning point.

This is the first day the vet didn't come so I'm hoping that he's on the mend. Poor devil is very thin and obviously weak but mummy will take care of him. To say I am relieved is an understatement.

Thanks again for all your support and advice - I really appreciate it. xx

[scattymare]

Fab news DB. Phew. It's incredible how a few bad days can take it out of them. When Eddie returned from hospital she actually looked slim for the first time ever!! She soon returned to her usual rotund self though!

[fleabitten]

Oh excellent! So pleased!!

[ceej]

I can really recommend (as can maxi) linseed and fungreek supplement (think its equus health) its great for weight gain and condition...I wouldnt feed it to a laminitic but he isnt is he?

www.snackandtack.co.uk/equestrian-c1/feed-store-c2/supplements-licks-c119/ready-cooked-linseed-with-fenugreek-p870

[fimacg]

so lease he is one the mend DB

[racaille]

Jan 22, 2012 12:40:33 GMT ceej said:

I can really recommend (as can maxi) linseed and fungreek supplement (think its equus health) its great for weight gain and condition...I wouldnt feed it to a laminitic but he isnt is he?

www.snackandtack.co.uk/equestrian-c1/feed-store-c2/supplements-licks-c119/ready-cooked-linseed-with-fenugreek-p870

But if he has Cushings he needs to be treated as if ....

Anyway, DB, I am ABSOLUTELY THRILLED ;D that he is on the mend. I hope you give yourself a humungous pat on the back because I am sure he would not have made it without your care and your love. He is a very lucky big lad to have found you ;D

[ceej]

'But if he has Cushings he needs to be treated as if ....'

well not necesarily - his individual needs must be balanced...it doesn't sound like the bloods actually returned a cushings result though? I can't see much here to indicate its really an issue? I mentioned about laminitic as im not sure whether he has ever had it?

Although have now looked into and linseed is fine for laminitics (not as linseed oil, but in it whole form (as it is in the equuus health stuff) - in fact recommended for low weight horses who cant be fed on sugars to help build weight.

Never needed it for harry so not looked into it before...but it could help? I know it is great for condition. Maxi struggled to keep condition and Max and this really helped...

Each horse has to be taken on its own condition. If he is malnourished and lacking weight but bloods haven't returned a cushigs result AND he hasn't suffered laminitis in the past, it may cause more harm treating him as one when his more pressing need is to build up both his vits and mins, condition and therefore immune system?

To be honest DB you would be best off getting specialist advice from a trained equine nutritionalist if his case is tricky...? He will need a proper balance in his diet if his results have shown deficiencies, and the lice episode may have taken a toll on his system too. It can be a mindboggling area!! I really rate allen and paige food...I rang them and they gave me some great advice for Harry's diet Or you can get a nutritonalist out. Its not just about weight gain its about a balance for whatever he is lacking, the right food to support his needs/difficulties.

And I totally agree, you obviously care about him loads ...well done for getting him through such a tricky episode! Its so stressful when they are ill and I remember being overwhelmed with information and opinions, knowing what to do for the best and int he end I learnt that there is no cure all - so much of it is trial and error and research based on what you know about your horse and what mix of individual needs and requirments they have - I spent hours and hours researching everything! Xx

[fleabitten]

I think that's a really good suggestion about getting a nutritionist out. We got the Baileys rep out to Connie - i dont know of any other reps tho. Will PM you her details. Obv they will suggest their feed but may give some useful advice. She was very good - we were changing a new bag of feed every time connie finished one bag which of course goes against every rule of feeding practically but the nutritionist recognised that she was a special case lol! it was the only thing we could do to keep her eating.

[zara]

DB I have only just caught up with this; so sorry to hear what a dreadful time you've had. Pleased to hear though that things seem to be improving. I can't recommend contacting a nutritionist enough as they can really offer invaluable advice - any of the major feed manufacturers offer this service; i was very impressed with the Spiller's girl who came to our yard. Keeping everything crossed that the big lad continues to improve xxxx

[dannyboy]

I'm still struggling with Murphy's diet. He's unable to really chew the soaked hay but I have been continuing with the hard feed 3/4 times per day. His poo is very soft and muchy - possibly due to the bran mash.

I've left soaked hay throughout the day for both Murphy and Casper but I don't think he'll take very much going by the last few days.

I have contacted Allen & Page today re: advice for feeding so hopefully they will get back to me asap with suggestions and stockists nearby.

Duckles, I've tried getting more info on that Colovet you suggest but there's not much info on the computer. I'll mention this to my vet as he's probably heard of it.

[racaille]

DB, have you had the blood test results back yet? Then you'll know what you are dealing with.

re the hay eating, didn't the vet say Murphy needs his teeth done? lots of older horses find it difficult to chew forage when their teeth get sharp.

I'd say the most urgent thing is to find out exactly what the blood tests show and then have a straight talk with your vet about treatment options. I know you'd spend your last penny on your beloved boy but you really must try to be a bit level headed about this, hun. Chin up.

[ceej]

I agree with Rac's - blood test results are a must 9although did you ahve them and they came back ok save malnourishment and white blood cells?) and then if the vet feels there are options, his teeth should be looked at. If he cannot eat roughage properly he is likely to suffer another bout of impacted colic - how is your grazing? They say that if you can see roughage in their poo of an inch or longer then they are not able to eat hay properly anymore. Willow gets Allen and Paige calm and condition and because it is soaked I feed it as a mash - although his teeth arent too bad at all - he has just had them done, he just finds it easier.

It sound sto me like you may be battling several things, and I think before you can make any reasoned decisions about how to progress you need to find out what his exact ailments are really - I suspectt he malnourishment may not be down solely to his colic if he is struggling to eat properly, but it may be his gut is not working properly (I would want to know more about this lump in his rectum also)

It may not be the stage to say this DB but one thing I found with Harry is that illness causes illness sometimes in an old horse. It may be that his issues (eg not being able to eat enough to keep his weight on and colicing as a result) cannot be managed - its awful watching an older horse go downhill - get all the info you can from your vet, get advice from every angle and then decide how best to manage his condition if they are manageable. I spend a LOT of money and even more heartache trying to save a horse that i should really have let go before I did if Im brutally honest - sometimes you cant keep fixing thm - it depends if these issues are all fairly straightforward (eg is it just that his teeth need doing and he needs to be put on grass and chaff rather than hay and a mushier diet, or is there soemthing more sinister deep down causing his issues? You need to know the answer to this. xx we are all here for you. PM me anytime - I have been there xxx

[dannyboy]

Yeah Rac I received the blood results back and they show that his white blood cell count is low (indication a secondary illness) and that he was showing signs of starvation / malutrition. Nothing concrete to suggest Cushings although could be very early signs. Your so right about me needing to be level headed! Have to work on that

Ceej, I fully understand where you are coming from in relation to one illness leading to another, especially in aged horses. I need to take a step back and gather more information from the vet in relation to his health. I definitely think there is more to it, especially with him having lice just the week before and generally just not at himself.
My vet carried out Murphy's dental care approx 6/7 months ago and when he came last week re: Colic, he commented on how good his teeth looked Pat on his own back perhaps ;D Then when I explained about his eating habits, i.e. hay dropping from his mouth, he thought it could be the back teeth. Its strange that this just happen to show up however when his colic first happened.
Anyway he suggested giving him the chaff etc: in the meantime to let him gain a little more strength before looking properly at his teeth but I'm expecting him mid week so he'll probably have a check then.

Thanks again.
I have 5 acres of fields rented but unfortunately no grass turnout atm Ceej - the weather has been awful, rain and more rain and ploughed up fields with flooded access. I honestly think lack of grass has an awful lot to do with his present ill health.

[fleabitten]

i think connie had something to do with low red/white blood cell count at one stage - cant remember which one it was. but i would definetly recommend that propell plus stuff, it was the best thing that helped connie.

[racaille]

Hmm, interesting.

DB, I know it's tempting to think that lack of grass is a problem (and I feel for you with those sodden fields - we are having the opposite problem) but a hay-only diet cannot in itself cause problems (unless he can't chew it). All the horses here eat hay only as there IS no grass! Mr T, heading towards 50 now has never had anything else in his life! And I know you feed lots of it so there is something else going on to cause the malnutrition.

It'll be very interesting to hear what the vet has to say ... fingers crossed.

[dannyboy]

Just text the vet asking for more tests etc: to see if anything secondary. Also mentioned about his eating habits and problems associated with chewing. I've asked him to give it to me straight so I can make a decision about Murphy's furture. I have an awful sinking feeling about all of this

[brigadier]

DB- get a horse dentist out to his teeth ASAP- how can you trust the vet who says his teeth look good but once you mention the quidding (food dropping) he says his back teeth MAY be a problem. Horses drop food out for once reason only- they cant chew it properly, so whether its a tooth, or an abscess or an ulcer or even a tumour there IS something there. And lack of grass at this time of year isnt the reason he is malnourished- there is nothing in grass at this time of year. They need hay and plenty of it.
Sorry to be brutal but worrying about nutritionists and additives etc etc etc is all very well but he needs hay or a decent substitute first and foremost. Someone else said that that could be the cause of the initial impaction. To right- if he cant chew it but is starving he will swallow it any way he can. Please please please do his teeth.

[fimacg]

I used to always use a dentist to do my boys - Vets usually spend abotu 2 days learning about horses teeth and thats those that specialise in equine vetinary stuff and dentists have to do a whole course.

had a quick look and HHO recommend Gemma Murdock for NI her number is 07811 423 196 if she doesnt ansewr she says leave a message or send a text.

www.gemmamurdock.co.uk/

[ceej]

Totally agree re teeth - I only use a qualified horse denstist - vets are foul smelling poopy at it!

[dannyboy]

Brig, I agree with my vet not being the best person to look at teeth, however he does most of the horses in my area so I just assummed he would be OK. I completely understand the urgency and I worry about it constantly.
My farrier was out a couple of weeks ago (he didn't have a good word on my vet doing teeth) and happened to mention that we had no-one in our area that specialised in Horse dentristry and he's recently had a dentist that came from Wales (every few months he visits) and who goes around all different locations. I will text my farrier and try and get more details but its unlikely he will be over anytime soon as its not long since his last visit.

Thanks Fi for the link, I'd never heard of her. I've just left a message on her mobile so hopefully she gets back to me soon.

Do I continue with the chaff etc: until I get the dentist?

modified to say that the dentist can't come until Saturday .

[fimacg]

Thats pretty quick for the dentist so grab with both hands, its only 4 days away.

As for chaff I would keep on feeding it, but you can also get specialist hay replacers for oldies with no teeth, that they slurp down...

its called Fibregy found it in this article which I thought quite good.

www.veteran-horse-welfare.co.uk/preparing_for_winter.html

[zara]

Hope all goes well with dentist. Just to add my friend feeds her aged, toothless shettie Allen and Page Veteran Vitality which is soaked. It has done wonders for him and as its mushy he can eat it xx

[joandlad]

My gut feeling (excuse the pun) is that getting teeth looked at is definitely the way to go. I had similar with my old boy in that I'd had his teeth done religously by the vet each year. He wasn't colicing but was the other extreme with projectile poo. A new vet from the pactice came out and by the time he'd walked up to his stable door he'd diagnosed it as a teeth problem as he could see my horse had lost all the chewing muscles in his cheeks. Gave me the phone number of my nearest dentist. She was absolutely amazing. I'd struggled to keep weight on my boy for the past 5 years and was almost at the point of giving him one more winter before having him pts. It took her 3 visits over the course of 6 months to put right what the vets had done wrong over the years. She told me I couldn't feed hay any more because he didn't have enough teeth to chew it (he was trying to eat it but ended up spitting out cigars of chewed hay) but we adapted and gave him big buckets of fibre feeds and lots of oil. After a few weeks he looked the best he'd looked in years and went on for another 6 years (with 6 monthly visits from the dentist).

Hope Murphy is feeling better soon. x