need your help

[kateflashy]

sounds like your doing what i used to do i would take in problem horses and try and solve what ever it was my methods were influenced by the gawani pony boy methods though each horse was different and some didnt take to it it was all about getting a friendship bond then the horse was willing to let you do what ever you wanted and respond and reward

[spotti]

Hmmm...I'm all for natural horsemanship but don't actually follow anyone in particular. I like Monty Roberts' mind-set (go in as if you have 15 mins and it will take all day: go in like you have all day and it will probably take just 15 mins) but don't really use any of his techniques (the Dually Halter has worked wonders for Faith though).

I can see where all the trainers are coming from with their 'herd' behaviour and training, but horses don't 'train' each other in the wild - they work on friendship and mutual trust...thats what we should be striving for!

Now I know I'll sound like a hypocrite(sp) because I say stuff like 'Monty Roberts all the way', but I actually haven't done ANY of his techniques (actually, thats a lie. I've tried join up, which Faith hated and she tries to kick/rear/attack me when we do it - could be due to her hatred of whips/anything whip-shaped or used for the same purpose i.e. to make her move forward! - but it worked really well with Blue and a little bit with Asher too. I think it just depends on the horse and your frame of mind when doing it).

I'm all for natural, but now you've brought it up, how natural is throwing a rope at a horses bum and expecting it to go forward nicely and without a fuss???

Personally, I use the best bits of everything and often make up my own stuff too. It all depends on how we're both feeling as to what we can do, but if you take the time to build up a bond between your horse and yourself then you're much more likely to get more out of your horse than if you force it to do it.

[I was having a big rant the other day on a similar subject about an article I found in a PONY magazine where some girl had written in saying she'd just started riding lessons and was wondering when she could start using spurs and a dressage whip! GOB SMACKED WAS I! Even more so when I read that the 'agony aunt type person' had said that she shouldn't use them yet as she won't have a stable lower leg so would be jabbing the pony all the time (fine, thought I...but listen to this) but maybe one day she'd be a good enough rider to use spurs and a dressage whip. A good enough rider to use spurs and a dressage whip? That's what she was aiming for? Surely we shouldn't be telling new riders that a good rider uses spurs and a dressage whip...surely the aim is to do as little as possible and the horse to do the most possible from such little communication. You think it, the horse does it. End of.
What the hell was this woman thinking? 'A good enough rider'? PAH! ARGH, these people wind me up! Anyway, sorry for the rant, just had to get it off my chest (have ranted to every member of my family, loads of people at the stables and generally to anyone who'll listen, yet it STILL bothers me. I might write in actually and tell them just how stupid they are! ARGH!!!!)]

Point I'm making is that you've all (well, most) been there for every single step of mine and Faith's journey, and looking back I can see just how far we have come. All that from an inexperienced, not-very-knowledgeable-but-learning-all-the-time girl, with an inexperienced, over dominant horse, in a place with no facilities/help from anyone other than you lot...and now we're bloody amazing (please excuse my language there)! We've come from not even walking forward and dragging me around and pulling down for grass, to a super-duper sweetheart who (most of the time) does as I ask [note ask, not tell] and tries her hardest at it!
Yeah in join-up the horse follows Monty at his shoulder...maybe because its scared of what will happen next. Faith, however, follows me but at a slight distance (unless asked to be at my shoulder) and will stop when I stop, but only when she reaches me - because she knows I am a safe place to be and she WANTS to be there.
That last sentence should describe everything about horsemanship - she does it because "she wants to be there". End of.

OK, now I can't quite remember how this topic started, so sorry for going off on a bit of a tangent (oh yes, I remember: Rebanna - animal trainer...) but this just really gets on my wires.

Right, going to stop writing now (good luck with your new job Rebanna by the way...we should meet up one day and work together - you're doing just what I want to do, but you're a few years ahead of me!)

Cheerio. Oh, and well done if you're still with me! ;D

[gnuton]

Hi Spotti;

That bit about the horse following made me remember something. It seems that most of the so called natural horsemen begin their relationship with a horse by chasing it around a circle and if you are doing it right the horse will eventually submit and come over to you. It should also be clacking it's mouth to you as it approaches.

Horsey babies will clack their mouths at the bigger older horses as a way of saying I'm just a little guy so please don't hurt me.

The theory behind this type of training is to have a horse that will look to you as their leader, and this is when they follow you around.

It's been over 4 years since I tried the circling thing with Jazz and Hunter and neither of them followed me around because of that training. Hunter follows me so he can shove me with his nose, or snitch my hat, or nose around whatever it is I'm carrying. Jazz tends to be a little more regal in his demeaner but he follows me around as well.

What is interesting though is after a workout, and I dismount and loosen the girth, they will keep in step with me. Their head to my shoulder, footstep matching to footstep (I'm really stiff and painful after riding so I slowly limp back).

I've noticed the same thing happening with other riders and their horses. After a good workout they walk like they are partners and that together they had done well.

So I guess the point is 'join up' actually occurs when you and your horse have achieved a goal, together.

[rebanna]

hi spotti im ay lincon a lot as one of my best mate's is there so might meet there! it is lincon ur going to?

[spotti]

Yep, the riseholme campus...can't wait! If you're around then we should meet up and go out for a hack or something

And Gnuton, try join-up with Faith and expect to get kicked in the head, reared at and be generally hated until you give up trying! She's just too clever for any repetitive methods, and just too stubborn to 'give in' - which I don't want her to do. We work as a team. Yes we have highs, and yes we have lows, but we have them together and that just makes us stronger.

[I spent most of monday at the stables, just cuddling Faith and reading harry potter in her stable - lol - and I was watching other people and noticed that although they take care of their horse, they don't actually spend much time with them. Yeah, they'll groom/muck out/feed/stroke/give the odd treat to their horse, but none of them seem to actually spend time just being with their horse. I spend hours with mine! If I added up all the time we spent (in a week) just 'being', then it would probably amount to as long as we spend 'doing', if not longer...
If ever you saw me and Faith, you'd question the need for all the gadgets. Remember that video on youtube of that girl riding her horse bareback with no bridle, doing sliding stops and spins??? Well my aim is to do similar things, but be even better! I want to prove to the world that less really is more, and Faith is my shining example

[brigadier]

Hi Spotti
like what you have to say as your view point always seems to be from experience and well thought out. Im not sure about that girl on you tube though, Horses can be taught most thngs including no tack or visible equipment but it doesnt necessarily mean they are enjoying it or 'at one' with their rider.

I was reading a book (some years ago now) about movie horses and the tricks they use to make the horses perform, on screen it looks lovely but the reality is quite different!

theres a dispute about using whips in racing at the moment, that big ugly mc crirrick fellow believes whips shouldnt be carried, but if that were to be the case then I would worry about what other methods would be employed to get the horses to respond. If you hit a horse and at the same time click then the horse will associate the click with the pain and respond. So i think banning whips for racing would encourage their use at other times.

Sorry maybe Ive gone off at a tangent but Im really not sure about the You tube girl- some of the horses responses are just a bit sharp...................
brig

[ceej]

Apr 28, 2008 19:38:55 GMT rebanna said:

OK ready to run for cover this is just my thought's on it but to a horse being on your own means your venerable to predators and must be incredibly scary and i see it as forcing your horse to do something in the wild if an animal bully's the other eventually the other's will turn on it in wolves they have been know to kill the bully i had my old horse joined up and i have never regretted something so much it toke about an hour and he asked to come in then they sent him out again and he got so upset and confused he lied down and started shaking

I completely agree with you here and I have my reservations about join up. It may be that in some cases, join up can be useful with certain horses who are challanging your authority at every step, but if you already have a trusting relationship with your horse, it seems pointless, confusing and downright mean.

I am all for natural horsmanship in the sense that you should understand why your horse does things. Body language can be incredibly useful, and knowing what horses do in herd etc. But, to me join up is using that knowledge against the horse...you are, in fact, using your horses greatest fear to make him want to be with you and that to me, for the most part, is not necessary.
and for people to take a wild horse into an arena of paying people and do the same (they do), to me, borders on the bloody cruel - it must be absolutely terrified. where is there giving if the action is forced?

As I say, there are lots and lots of good things about 'natural horsemanship' and I wish more people understood their horses better as it can aid the relationshiop beyind belief, but its pick and chose for me, depending on the horse - I would never ever ever take Willow and do join up - he would be terribly confused and hurt and would drop down dead with shock the poor pettle.

It is really the same old thing - dont just do it because all the rest are doing it - what will the process do for YOUR horse? to me, that exact question, and knowing and understanding the answer = good horsemanship, whatever it is called.

lecture over

[spotti]

"I completely agree with you here and I have my reservations about join up. It may be that in some cases, join up can be useful with certain horses who are challanging your authority at every step, but if you already have a trusting relationship with your horse, it seems pointless, confusing and downright mean." - ceej1000

At the beginning (and until about a month ago) Faith was sooooooo overly dominant and sooooo challenging, and attempting join-up just made things worse! Like I said, it worked well with Blue and Asher (well, a bit with Asher, but only 'cos I only did a bit with her) so it can't be that its always bad, but for us it just didn't work - we generally ended up both getting very stressed/worked up and it then took us about a week to even start to get back to the relationship we had before...just not worth doing in my case as its taken me 9 months to get this far, let alone having to start again everytime we try to do something new!

Everything has its place, but as already said - don't just believe everything you hear, and don't just do it 'cos everyone else does it! DON'T BE A SHEEP!

And Brig, thank you.
I know I don't have a lot of experience (i.e. not been horsey for very long), but I appear to have had a lot of things happen to me and it just so happens that this is my area of interest/experience/expertise (ha ha, lol!). Give me a problem about schooling/shoeing/racing etc and I wouldn't have a clue, but training a horse kindly is my speciality!
And the girl on youtube...I actually remember slagging her off when I first saw her, but I just thought I'd remind you lot of her just to give you an idea of what I was on about (except we won't be doing 'showy-offy things...oh no. We'll be doing bareback and bridleless XC! And big ones at that! Plus, she's going to be my shining example of what your horse could be, if only you took the time to get to know it and be nice!)

I am glad this topic was brought up, its really got me thinking (had a niggle in the back of my mind about certain techniques but couldn't quite put my finger on it...now I can! She was scared, which was why she reacted the way she did...problem sorted. Ta!)

[rebanna]

hi spotti yep deffo when Ur there IL bring up some of my saddle's and you can have a go in them

anyway this is what i was thinking of buying
halter's in all sizes simple snaffles in a range of sizes
lung line's
passoa
bridle again in different sizes
can you all think of any thing else?

[brigadier]

Long reins a deffo, lunge lines will do but specific ones to do the job are more professional.
Horses get so much confidence by long reining and they really enjoy it.

Spotti- experience is one thing but a lot of people havent got the right kind of experience or dont use it well.Keep doing what you are doing- it sounds good to me!
brig