Bias in showing?

[toryoaks]

I have been reading the threads on showing and noticed a lot of people complaining about showing, and bias etc and I thought it would make for quite an interesting thread discussion.

I mainly compete in showing and find that on the whole that the judging is fair and competent. Obviously, I would like it if my horse won the whole time but I can understand that this is not realistic! For example, in the ridden hunter yesterday I was pulled in 2nd to a very nice young horse, who although I did not feel outclassed by him, I can see why it was above me. It did a very nice show and so did my boy until he let out two humungous bucks in his gallop. The coloured horse that was stood third was nice and did a very well mannered, quiet show. The young horse eventually won the class, with the coloured being pulled in 2nd and me third. As such, I thought the judging was very fair and I can completely understand the rational behind it.

However, in the riding club horse, I feel that I was totally and utterly stuffed! My horse did not put a foot wrong and did a beautiful individual show with rein back, flying changes on each rein, extension and a really nice jump. The pony by me was nice enough but not in my view a patch on my horse. However, eventually the pony won the class. The comment from the judge was ‘your horse is lovely, the complete package, but I was just so impressed with the pony as he was so well behaved given he is only 4’. What the hell?!! Yes, the pony was well behaved for a four year old and would be in the future a very nice riding club type, however by your own admission, my horse is the complete package……………grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr – you are judging on behaviour in the ring here and now not the future!

However, I just have to chalk it up to experience and say ‘hey, you win some you lose some’. We have all been beaten by the horrific horse with stringhalt and the one that bucked every other stride. In showing, we put ourselves up for someone to make a judgement on their opinion and I am of the view that if you put yourself forward for someone else judgement, you should just accept it weather you agree or not. I find that a lot people seem to complain that showing is ‘biased’, etc when really the judge did just not like them or preferred another horse. What I do not understand is those people that you hear every week by the ringside, slagging everyone else off including the judge, complaining about bias yet still turn out every week in front of ‘a judge who is obviously bias’.

The same faces tend to be top of the line quite simply because they are the professionals whose job it is to make horses and as such their horses tend to give the best ride, etc.

Perhaps I am wrong on this view though – what are everyone else’s experiences/views?

X x

[kateflashy]

showing can be really bias i know of one judge who will not place a chestnut regardless if it was the only one with 4 legs and you can tell his line up from 2 secs into the class they go in hieght order and down in lightness so first will be the 18 hh black down to the grey 15hh in last place and alot of judges judge the rider first if its a well known they will win one judge vertualy admited it to me once saying they only won because of who they were

[toryoaks]

Hmmm, The bit about the judge looking at the rider first it worrying, but you say one judge virtually admitted it - what did he/she actually say?

But in terms of the judge who lines the class up according to height - how is that bias? Surely that is just incompetent judgeing? Would you just not go back under that judge again?

[kateflashy]

it was in a huinter class i came 2nd after the class i was talking to the stewards and judge and she said 'thazt horses was terrible in front but when i saw ***** was riding i just had to pull it in first '

[toryoaks]

Obviousley that is awful and i genuineley belive that if you hear a judge make a comment like that then you should report that Judge to which ever society they are registered with.

But on the whole, would you not say that judeging is pretty fair? Or if not, has it stopped you competing?

[kateflashy]

i think its about 50/50 with judges i would always see who was judging before i entered a class if it was judge i knew to be unfair i wouldnt show under them one judge in particuler was brilliant he always judged fairly on the horse on that day alot of people didnt like him because he called a spade a spade

[Blonde Donkey]

at one show i was at the judge pulled up three that she knew then me and savvy. there was some better ponies in the class than her but after the three she knew she liked savvy the best just because of her attitude and her loving the ring.
another one we went to we were marked down because of her colour and the judge thought she was naughty after seeing her play up outside of the ring - she's like that a twit outside and a superstar in the ring where she can show off
i guess some judges prefer different types of animals like we all do

[trojanwarrior]

I think that alot of it will depend on what level you're showing at. At the smaller shows there can be bias towards people that the judge is familiar with. However, in the classes I compete in, I can't enter if I know the judge or have had any sort of involvement with them in the last couple of years. But it is up to me to declare that.

If you're riding at county level, you'll be against the professionals. They have the know how & can make an ok horse look fantastic. As long as it has sound conformation, they can work wonders. They know all the tricks of the trade & hence are found at the top of the line up. There are classes that are strictly for amateurs such as amateur hunter classes & VHS veteran qualifiers. But who can check that the rider has soley produced the horse & that it hasn't been to a professional yard?

I did work for a lady who had a working hunter/ridden hunter, who admitted that she had a professional ride him at shows because her face wouldn't fit. And she did pick her shows dependant on who was judging. But thats part & parcel of a good showman.

[ceej]

I have no place in this discussion as showing, I am afraid, does nothing for me. BUT, I went to one with a friend once and there was a blinkin old pony who had a real given up on life look about him...obviously been to a million shows, and was ridden by a real brat. the pony was pretty stiff...

anyhoo, she took it in a class (dunno what it was) where she has to do a bit of prancing about and then jump a couple of fences. Only two ponies jumed clear, hers being one of them.

After the class I heard her saying 'hurumph, the judge only put me in third AFTER a horse that didnt even jump clear beacuse he said my pony was arthritic and shouldnt be jumping...(good old judge) so she said 'well i will show him' and entered a jumping class...a working hunter type thing. She went into the ring, and he pulled her over and disqualified her for having an unfit pony!

So my impression that day was good, but like I say I dont do it but thought you woudl like the story... ;D Wonder what happened to the pony after that? Wonder if it got the blame? probably. That is one of the things I dont like about showing...it all seems very cliquey and full of brats..sorry!

[raymond]

I think that there can be bias in showing - I think it must be difficult to be completely objective as you will always have your favourites as to type.

I have had a mixed experience in classes I have done. I have done coloured classes where I think judges have favoured the kind of heavier and feathered coloured, then I have been in classes where I have been brought in first where I have thought people have done better are better turned out than me. (I am not the best at plaitin!)

I do prefer show jumping though I think as at least it is more clearly decided on merit.

[scattymare]

I used to do quite a bt of showing and agree there are some great judges,others who will place their 'friends'. One classic example of bad judging, years ago my friend and I shared the ride of a pony. She took him to one riding club show. The judge was all over her before the class and commented how he 'loved Dun ponies' Said pony won every class she entered (and much as I loved him and thought he was great, there were definately others who deserved it far more). Anyway next show we went to I took him in same classes, same judge and we came 5/6th against the same horses (which was actualy a more accurate placing). Did kind of make me think...who are you actually judging here?

[FirenLady]

maybe to make it all fair, everyone should wear a paper bag on thier head Its a bit like Eurovision song contest really. We always come last cos no one likes us! perhaps if they didn't print where they were from it would be more fair.

[slinky]

TBH I think the judge either likes your horse or doesn't
The first few in the line-up tend to change a little, but not much.
This Sunday we were pulled in 3rd, after our individual show we were moved up to second. Despite the fact I was deposited during our show in the corner of the ring.
How you can be ditched, and moved up a place is a strange thing, but that's judging for you.
I'll try not to get too upset about the 1st that we could have had ;D

[sherr002]

i think it can be very biased at local shows its a "not what you do but who you know" kinda thing. for example there is a woman X who goes to every show in the area and judges also. ok she does have a gorgeous cob (that i want) and a little riding horse that has small stumpy legs and a huge round belly. i dont even bother entering the riding horse as you know who will win! said horse is well behaved but has its moments(like they all do). because X knows most of the judges and will place their horses first they place her first even though there can be 2/3 horses that have gone better. if a new judge actually places her 2nd or even 3rd she will go out with a face like thunder and complain or even cry sometimes yes a grown woman cry because she came second! poor judges dare not place her lower
it really puts me off showing as its not fun if you know who is going to win

[tory]

Having come back and read this post, most people seem to have enountered some sort of bad judgeing but equally encountered some good judges. I suppose it is quite clique though, but i suppose if you spend your whole summer going to county shows you will get to know a lot of people. Its a difficult one - should udges be banned from competing in any classes? Would that not just remove the decent, knowledgable people from the judgeing panel meaning that you have some plonker jufgeing/riding your horse.....?!

[slinky]

Jun 25, 2008 19:04:18 GMT tory said:

Having come back and read this post, most people seem to have encountered some sort of bad judging but equally encountered some good judges. I suppose it is quite clique though, but i suppose if you spend your whole summer going to county shows you will get to know a lot of people. Its a difficult one - should judges be banned from competing in any classes? Would that not just remove the decent, knowledgeable people from the judging panel meaning that you have some plonker jufgeing/riding your horse.....?!

Unfortunately you can't get away from the fact that either your horse is of show quality or not.
You may have the best going horse, and ridden beautifully, but if the judge prefers the horse next to you he/she will place that one.
They are looking for an animal truest to its type. Unfortunately that will always come down to personal preference.
We have to take comfort in our small triumphs, and when your horse has done well, and reward them as deserved. ;D
I'm sure you're average horse couldn't give a monkeys whether they come home with a ribbon or not, but they care about how we make them feel. ;D

[flash7]

I'm sure you're average horse couldn't give a monkeys whether they come home with a ribbon or not, but they care about how we make them feel. ;D[/quote

I think you are right slinky. ;D

[silverstirrups]

'They are looking for an animal truest to its type. Unfortunately that will always come down to personal preference.' Quoted from slinky above.

But surely if they're looking for an animal truest to its type thats what they should choose, not the one they prefer. So whatever a perfect M&M should like look like is the one they should pull in first, even if they actually like the one thats 3rd better. I hope that makes sense.

I'm a newbie on here (first post!) so I hope I don't upset anyone straight away! I've just been browsing the board so thats why I'm replying to an old post.

I'm a newbie to showing too and was shocked to discover that there are really no guidelines or training for judges. It seems you can drag any Tom, thingy or Harry off the street and ask him/her to judge I do dresage mostly and list judges have lots of training and your score sheet shows you what the judges are looking for. Much fairer. I must admit I haven't done much showing since I discovered that its really down to what the judge likes. If you just do local shows as I do, you're bound to keep coming up against the same judges and if they don't like your horse you might as well go home every time that judge appears. Even if you own the most perfect section A or whatever. Absolutely bonkers
Sorry to have a bit of a rant in my first post ;D

[only1wu]

Hi Silverstirrups!
Welcome to the Forum. Nice to meet you.
Wu ;D

[silverstirrups]

Thanks. Have introduced myself on the introductions section, there's a pic of one of my horses there too.