a question

[kateflashy]

just a thought ive had for a while

in eventing there has been many rider fatalities yet hardly ever any in jump racing

the body protector recommended for race riding is 2 standereds below the min required for eventing yet a fall racing should be a lot more dangerous as the chances of being hit by another horse arte extremly high and i know a friend did have such a fall he was kicked by at least 10 horses as he was leading a 20 horse field when he was unseated ok he suffered terrible head injuries yet he's ok
there is not this risk in eventing

so it makes me wonder as to body protector standereds i had a level 7 one and i couldnt move in it yet my leval 5 racing one i had full movement
so what im wondering is are the high leval really safer

[ceej]

That is a bit odd..

Do you think its to do with the way poeple fall in eventing? for instance, the jumps are totally solid, and you can hit a tree, or stump, but in racing the jumps are a bit more flexible? Mind you, there is still wood at the edge of ditches and you could still het a horse hoof in the chest..

Dont know the answer....but I do know my body protector is bulky and I bought an expensive slim one!!

[maximum]

almost all the eventing deaths are as a result of rotational falls which result in broken necks which no body protector could help.

I think the answer is in education of the rider. Too many people are moving up the levels quickly without the base of experiance that they need to ride cross country.

[duckles]

I think this is an interesting question but i don't think the body protector makes much difference. The number of deaths in x country as compared to show jumping must mean that its nothing to do with the height of the jump and it can't be the speed if fatalities among jockeys is less. I think it must be the fixed jumps. I presume the impact of fixed jump and speed is be more likely to result in a serious injury than a fall over a hurdle. Then again, while jockeys run the risk of being crushed by other horses when they fall, the horse is usually going straight so they fall straight. In eventing, a lot of jumps would be angled or combinations or drops so there is a greater chance of a twisting fall. The other thing is that racing horses rarely refuse so there isn't that jolt associated with their falls such as you would have with a last minute refusal or run out. Those are my thoughts anyway. It is really sad what ever the reason and if education helps - I hope they go for it .

[haffyfan]

Apr 29, 2008 18:24:07 GMT maximum said:

I think the answer is in education of the rider. Too many people are moving up the levels quickly without the base of experiance that they need to ride cross country.

I think you are bang on Maxie. Money can buy you most things but not experience...for eg just look at what happened to superman (sorry his name escapes me at min)

[Blonde Donkey]

haffyfan - do you mean christopher reed, poor bloke

[Blonde Donkey]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_reeve
and that movie was so cursed

[abi]

I agree with you all but apart from education (how to fall properly classes?!) theres not a lot we can do?
part of the thrill of XC is the risk, and body protectors cant ever protect brocken necks, or even broken backs if you land vertically on the base of your spine. My mum did this a few summers ago, came off a 16.3 onto hard summer ground unpright, but because she landed on her coccyx (tailbone) it was the jerk that broke her back, and no body protector could have protected this.

i saw we invent velcro jods and saddles!!! xx

[otto]

There are too many differences to compare racing to eventing.
Firstly terrain, racing is done on flat ground where as event XC courses are generally over undulating and often hilly courses. So the race horse has perfect consistent approach to the fence, the event horse will be jumping uphill one minute, down hill the next.
Qaulity of ground also plays a part. Race courses are generally pristine with superbly prepared ground. The fences are wide allowing many approach paths and number of horses running per day is limited (apporx 60). Eventing there is generally only one prefered approach to much narrower fences with up to 350 runners per day. This creates somewhat less than perfect ground conditions for take-off.
Now lets look at type of fences. Again race fences are very similar to each other and generally slope away from the horse making them easier to jump. Event fences have a huge variety of fence types, each one requiring a different technique to clear successfully. Height of xc fences are somewhat bigger than race fences.
Length / duration of course. Average race is around 4 minutes I believe with approx 10 jumping efforts. Upper level eventing the xc course is around 8-12 minutes with up to 30 jumping efforts. Add in that the event horse has already done dressage test and showjumped and you would have a lot less in the tank towards the end of an XC course.
And finally, type of fall. In racing the jockey will generally fall off over or after the fence. If the horse falls the jockey is generally thrown clear on the immediate impact. They then run the risk of being trodden on by following horses but whilst significant injuries are cause by this they are rarely fatal. Conversly the fatal accidents in event are the result of a rotational fall of horse. In this type of fall the horse hits the fence at takeoff side by striking the fence above the knee, often just below chest. This flips the horse over. The event rider is trained to stay with the horse due to the number of awkward jumps thjat will be experienced during the course of any round so is often not thrown clear of the horse. If the rider then hits the deck in the same place the horse does it means a crushing weight of 600 -700 kg hitting the rider full force, often at speed. The crush injuries to chest and internal organs are often fatal. No body protector can safegaurd against a crush injury.
And finally the number of NH race days is roughly the same as the number of eventing days. The major difference is that on each day racing will have around 60 horses running, eventing will have 300 - 400 which significantly increases the odds of an accident.
Accidents / fatalities in eventing are never a pleasant thing but it is a risk we are all aware of as we leave the start box and to be honest, the risk actually adds to the excitement / challenge. Calls to make eventing safer almost never come from event riders themselves but from outside bodies.

[duckles]

Otto:I think your reply is really well put and reasoned. Co incidently I ended up having this conversation at lunch time because we were discussing a rider who died at a water jump recently. Appartently it was a very badly designed jump and that contributed to the fall. However I don't think the risk of death really adds to the excitment rather the risk and challenge of doing a difficult course and the sheer thrill of speed and jumping. i don't know if I would jump a course that I thought I had a good chance of dying on it - I must be either getting sense or getting old!

[finefilly]

also, horse racing skull caps are not suitable for use in any other riding discipline. i thought they would have to be the best to protect you but obviously not. bit weird

[ceej]

Wow what a brilliant reply Otto....have the gift of karma for your thought and reasoning!!

[maximum]

Apr 29, 2008 21:04:41 GMT abi said:

I agree with you all but apart from education (how to fall properly classes?!) theres not a lot we can do?
xx

I dont mean eductaion as in how to fall but in basic riding skills. Too many people go from intro to intermediate/advanced too quickly and dont learn the basics of reading a course and riding it correctly. Obviuosly this is not always the case but it can be a contributary factor. So many people are too far in front of the movement and this can have a huge effect on the horses way of going and its balance.

However all the experiance in the world will not help in a rotational fall when it does happen it is preventing it happening that is where we need to look.

[tina]

In certain countries riders have to have so many points in dressage before they can show jump, then so many points before they can compete at eventing. I'd like to see a similar system here.

The worst thing BE ever did in my opinion was to bring in intro. When I did the majority of my competing there was no intro or day tickets and Pre Novice was 3'7. The first thing you'd do was a Riding Club Class, which was the same test and courses as the Pre Novice but without the affiliation costs. Generally people who did that were already DCing at normal RC opens (3'6).

Now i'm not talking about the riders higher up the scale but it seems as if riders are not as prepared as we were, oh and don't get me started on back protectors, they don't stop you breaking bones like so many people believe, and while people have this mistaken belief and trust in them they will continue to push their limits thinking they won't get hurt.

Rotational falls are always going to happen, unless we have frangible pins, breakable rails etc on all our fences and if you have a horse land on you no protection in the world will save you.

Christopher Reed did his landing on his head when the horse stopped, it was much like Nick Skelton's accident (which he fortunately recovered from). He was actually an experienced horseman so I don't think it's fair for you to quote him as an example of money buying everything but experience.