Lazy horse

[racaille]

What can you do about a horse that is bone idle?

If I feed him up with luzerne he is an amusing ride - it's a finely tuned thing between a bronc and a lively ride, though.

But now he's well fed on hay and getting a bit fat and is always a bit lethargic in the heat (that I can understand). But he is a lazy boy. It's not at all that he's dead to the leg, he reacts instantly, it's just that he will fall back into a slouch fairly quickly and I don't want to nag with my leg (but I fear I do).

He respects a dressage stick! A little flick and he livens up. But is it OK to use a stick all the time? Will he just switch off eventually?

Or should I just up the luzerne? I'd have to cut the hay but I'd rather have a bronc than a slug.

PS Haffy - I remember that you have said in the past that Murph can be idle. Have you found
a solution?

[fleabitten]

Well, Kieran used to react pretty quickly but now he has gotten quite dead and I end up having to boot him round, giving him a smack every now and then - think this is partly due to me letting him go slow.

Ive always been taught to always carry a stick even if you dont think you need it, so you can use it if you need to - I dont think he should switch off if you only use it when you need to, its a bit different from using your legs as its v easy to nag (i think i may be getting into this habit now!).

I have also found that if you do interesting stuff with Kieran he wakens up a bit, like going fast/slow/fast in trot or even canter or cantering up the hill, jumping, hacking etc. Making the sessions too long makes him tired and v bored as well.

[haffyfan]

Racaille in a word no! He is bone idle.....he has an aversion to trotting just about full stop! cantering is easier on the leg but he can get excited/silly and buck.
If he were a human he would be a computer geek, sat in his room at mummy's house hacking into peoples bank accounts.

Usually he will walk out pretty well, unless it's very hot as it has been lately or if he gets tired (at which point he gives up - no stamina what soever hence he won't make me an endurance horse - he then slobs along like an old cab horse) but often if trotting I feel like I'm nagging him and also if he's tired...not that it has the slightest affect of course. Being a porker doesn't help the situation either I guess.

As Flea has said he's better when we go new places, plus he has rides he enjoys more than others (short ones with no trots or canters!) but I have given up schooling as he is about as responsive and cooperative as a Tractor with a dead battery.

I too feel as though I am nagging him but have never used a whip mounted...one I am not a fan and two tried it when he wouldn't lead as a youngster (just a tickle) and he reacted extremley violently!!

I too will be very interested in peoples responses.

[scattymare]

Haffy I think you've just described Patrick!!
I am discovering with him that he seems to use 'laziness' almost as a form of napping. When we are out in company he is a pleasure generally. I would not really call him forward going but he holds a nice pace. Sometimes he can even get jolly strong, particularly when going new places he perks up no end. And yes sometimes he slows down, but I guess we all have our off days.
However take him out alone and bam! We're back to the old decrepid donkey act!! His walk is improving, but asking him to trot is better than any workout dvd I've ever seen!! What takes me and S an hour to hack together, will take 2 when we are alone! As for schooling, well we haven't done a great deal as yet due to his previous condition, but lets just say I don't hold out much hope for us competing in any dressage tests soon!
As you said Haffy, he seems to have certain routes where he is more forward than others.
I do always carry a stick (short crop) and find that a smack behind the leg gets him listenig - if the legs have failed. I try to keep it's use to a minimum however as I am aware that my leg muscles are still far from perfect - he works much better from a squeeze than a 'kick' so I don't like to punish him for my shortcomings.
Unfortunately I think there are some horses - just like humans - who are naturally more , lets call it laid back for politeness - oh OK then bone idle!! Whilst we can use different things to try and engage them for longer, the fact is they will always be lazy

[brigadier]

Oh dear- you will not like my response! But as one that uses the whip for what it is intended-to back up the leg I have found that lazy horses sharpen up once they understand what you want and if the only way you intend to communicate it is with a nagging thud thud thud at their side then what do you expect.

I was watching dressage recently and this daft woman on a mare was cantering round like one possessed. each time the mare passed a gap in the hedge she changed legs (in anticipation of fleeing the monster in the hedge) The rider whipped her senseless! When she rode past me she must have seen my face because somewhat embarrassed she said "I dont usually use my whip like that- she's in season" I declined to comment! Now that was whip abuse and cruelty and the lady actually wanted pulling off the horse and thrashing herself (I should have done it and said "Oh its ok youre menstruating!"

Anyhow the point is a whip is for a purpose and please see my response on Duckles left canter lead thread re use of the whip- what is better- a couple of sessions with a few smart taps or a lifetime of thudding heels- it depends what you want from a horse. You decide!

[solomon]

This is not a comment on how you all ride but sometimes a nagging rider and i know one personally can actually deaden a lively horse, Brig is totally right, we have to approach riding in a professional manner. If you ask for trot you mean it and if a short flick is required then so be it. So much better than boot boot boot.

[racaille]

I have no problem with a whip either - I much prefer a little tickle than thud thud. But Paco doesn't give a toss about a short crop (he couldn't care less about the long lunge whip either - even though I'm quite accurate with it and can land a belter on the backside if necessary ) the only thing that wakes him up is the long and whippy dressage stick.

Now I don't have a problem with using it. A flick really sharpens him up. He's responsive enough to my aids in as much as he'll give me whichever pace I ask for straight away, but he will - if I leave it at that - then just slob along after a few minutes as opposed to nice bouncy paces.

So I don't mind sticking with the dressage stick. But I guess he'll always have a tendency to be lazy? Or do you think he'll get the idea after a while?

[brigadier]

He will get the idea! they do- they realise who is on their back and what is expected and youll have no problems. He may take advantage from time to time but he will know as soon as you get your business head on what is expected. I too use a longish dressage whip, I did carry a short whip for a bit, but it was more for the sound when he was going through his dragon phase. But its the dressage whip you need just to flick behind the leg.

When I was teaching regularly i used to secretly giggle at the way some of the horses would 'slow time' their riders. They would be puffing and kicking away and the horses would be switched off. (the riders werent allowed whips for ages whilst they built up strength in their seat and legs) they would say "he (the horse) wont do this- he wont do that" so I would get on just to prove the point, no whip or spurs and the horse would instantly engage and do something beautifully. They know!

[joandlad]

Worth checking out that you are actually allowing the horse to move. Murph's trained to the seat and the moment I stop allowing my seat bones to move in a walk he halts (helps that I have a treeless saddle and he can feel my movement easily). My friend rode him and could barely get him to move. She's since had EE lessons (which focus on getting you to move with the horse) and now has no problem getting Murph to go forward. This probably explains why some people seem to have an "electric bum" and can get any horse moving and others struggle. If the horse can't move it's back it can't move. Simple as that.

[scattymare]

Brig that reminds me of a horse that used to be at college - she was getting on a bit but in the past had competed WH at HOYS. She was very laid back unless she was asked correctly. I remember once someone complaining that 'she was lazy and couldn't do it' so our instructor got on to prove him wrong and in front of our eyes the pony changed from a dobbin with it's nose sticking out and shuffling along to a beautiful, self carried show pony!
Just goes to show.
As I said earlier, P responds far better when I can squeeze rather than 'kick' - likely that years in a riding school have 'deadened' his sides. Now I've just gotta sort out my own muscles!

[duckles]

I think that a lazy horse is very difficult - I wonder is lazy the correct term? SOme are laid back and some may be unmotivated ie they are forward going and responsive to different situations or different riders. SO I agree completely with what Brig and Jo are saying: a good rider will get a different response but sadly we are not all great riders!!! Cori is a typical 'lazy' horse. He is an intelligent animal (which is a mixed blessing!) and summed me up very quickly! When motivated - by other horses, interesting or difficult work etc , he is a star. When bored, he is a mule. When I used to have him in livery he would delight in beautiful canter changes on a shalom, dirty double ditches or grids but a session in the arena on my own would reduce me to frustration.
And yes, Brig is right and my instructer used to say the same things to me (actually he used to love riding Cori but did admit he as hard work). However, my riding skills and personality are not quite as strong and Cori ceased to pay any heed to a schooling whip after a while. Now I use a short stick and hit my boot or swizz it in the air to get his attention. I would rarely use it on him but when I do, it does get a response. I also keep my sessions short and very active. For instance I don't warm up long in walk (which I do with JB who is not lazy Thank God ) I go into trot and canter quite quickly. I change direction a lot and jump when I can - in other words I try to keep him quessing and on his toes. Sadly, I do not have the ability to get him doing the lovely lateral work that he used to (I used to have him very fit) but maybe one day. I also agree with Jo- some people (in fact all people) can get tighter in the hips if they are nervous (I don't mean you Racaille - I just mean in general terms). To get back to my yoga - there are a lot of hip openers in it and I notice that I am more supple in my pelvis since I started doing them.
So while I agree firm consistant riding is the key, I do think trying to do the things the horse enjoys does help with motivation- perhaps the things the rider enjoys as well??? Our own enjoyment can slip through to the horse I think

[haffyfan]

Joandlad my murph is also seat/weight/voice trained and I also use a treeless saddle...he's just a lazy sod.

Like paco he responds to the initial ask but usually quickly gets fed up and wants to walk again and admire the scenary, that is when it feels like I am nagging him as leg on gets a few more strides but then it goe sagain.... and so on.

I totally understand what is being said reagrding the stick but honestly don't think I would live to tell the tale...he has never been physically abused etc but has an extremley agressive side to him and will NOT give in. He kicks/bites...whatever it takes and would in all honesty fight you to the death if the situation were to arise. One reason why although he was a pain in the butt from the moment he arrived, that I made the desicion to stick with him and not see him go home to home (and i dare say beating to beating) until he was destroyed on the grounds of being dangerous. I'm being over dramatic you no doubt think!

On the other hand he can be the sweetest boy imaginable, it's all in the way you are with him....look at him the wrong way or use the wrong tone of voice and he'll ahve you soon as look at you! He is very receptive to human moods/emotions etc. I know everyone thinks this about theirs but he is also super intelligent, far too much so for his own good.....he picks new things up very quickly but he also knows exactly what he does and doesn't want to do and what he likes/dislikes and if he doesn't want to something he will not do it. Period! There's that saying that you ask a stallion... I have built up quite a special relationship with him over the years and I know he loves me really, he's actually just a scared insecure little boy but thats another thread about the pyschological and emotional damage that early and abrupt weaning causes. (Not by me I might add, I did not know/own him until a yearling)

Many of the people at my old yard thought we'd never actually get on him after seeing all his terrible ones, two's threes and into fours. I feel to a certain extent I have to be thankful we have reached an understanding that allows me to safely handle and ride him and continue to convince him everything is his idea and that likes it.

Sounds like a cop out your probably saying...maybe so....but I am always willing to take on board ideas/try new things that won't upset the balance so to speak

[racaille]

Yes ... I am beginning to see what is going on .... and I have had the humiliating but eye-opening experience of seeing someone get on him and the beast suddenly work well

I don't think it is a seat problem, in as much as (though porky) I am quite supple in the back/pelvis (oooh er, that sounds all wrong ) but his saddle is probably not very comfortable for him and I'm scraping my pennies together for a Barefoot, hopefully this month.

But all the wise words about him knowing who is on him, that idea makes me sit up .... I have done a lot of long-distance in a strung-out cowboy fashion at an economical pace - you have to when you covering the miles - and I think he's just got used to that being our thing. I think he hasn't fully realised that there are times when I want something more from him - although I was heartened by this morning's trotting.

I think temperament has something to do with it, just like people. He loves to find new ways to evade work! But I have let him get away with slobbing around for too long and he thinks he is allowed now. Sorry Pax, I'm upping the ante ....

[fleabitten]

Rac - I think this is partly what has happened to Kieran - I dont mind him plodding along as long as he goes when I tell him to but ive been letting him away with plodding and now hes switching off. Will have to get firm!

I was watching my cousin riding him when I tried him out and he was flying about the arena and then when I got on he was really steady! This also happened on another horse I tried, when my cousin got on him he jogged a bit and was a bit faster and then when I got on him he was steadier. So I think you're right about different riders on different horses how they react to different riders etc.

I think it may be the heat and mugginess at the mo as well that is making him sluggish, plus his feet being bad, meaning he isnt feeling on top form as well as me riding him not very well! - hopefully this wee bit of feed, oil and supplement will revive him! Well, not too much although I cant see Kieran turning into a headcase. ;D

[jane]

Hi Rac.

You say he responds to the stick and I know they can be a bit of a nuicance on a long ride having to carry it all the way, but I have found that rather than carrying a stick at all times, a twig from the hedge (which you can dispose of) is just as effective.
One really lazy boy I used to ride used to perk up as soon as you pulled a leaf off a tree and more or less just showed him. He didn't go nuts or anything just literally would perk up saving you nagging with your legs, me thinks this lad was dead to the leg because of previous 'nagging'.

[brigadier]

All that said I rode two horses that simply got the better of me, both were beautiful animals but never gave an inch more than they had to. One had belonged to a top eventer and came our way because he wasnt up to progressing further in the direction needed and the other was just abused and damaged. A whip didnt work, nor spurs. They had totally introverted and although they were rideable they never gave anything good. But both did a good job with their similar female riders who literally accepted what they gave and treated them well. But it was sad that they were like they were and I do wonder what they endured!