Laminitis

[ceej]

something that comes up again and again.....

(sorry to butt in Ceej but thought the laminitis clinic link should be at the top of the page maybe?)

www.laminitisclinic.org/

[kateflashy]

some thing im dreading pika and rocket are going away on hols the weekend both little native ponies im asking for trouble but pika def deserves a break

[brigadier]

Got a reply yesterday (finally ) from the Horse trust re a new study into the anti inflammatory/ nerve numbing effects of feeding mint. Too early in study to have any information but the Donkey Sanctuary are already feeding it as a precaution.
Brig

[kateflashy]

hopefully mine should be ok and prob why dont see alot of it over here cos the fields are abundant with wild mint growing and the horses munch thru it like no tomorow

[haffyfan]

Speaking of which...Wu...how is Travers doing??

[brigadier]

Hey Kate that is really really interesting, I think because we have so little land here the farming industry has used so many pesticides etc that naturally occurring wild herbs are scarce. The only place you find naturally growing wild garlic etc is in conservation areas or heritage sites. You may have a point there. I will email the Trust and pass on that as it may be significant. when I did my training on pasture management they always said horse pasture should have a strip sown with herbs but you never/ever see it!

Does anyone else sow herbs into their pasture???

Comfrey has anti inflammatory benefits and can be used as a poultice for bruising.

Garlic has anti inflammatory benefits and blood thinnning properties

Mint MAY be beneficial for laminitis and presumably any nerve induced pain.

Alum (help here as it just something I remember- where do you get it-how do you use it? is good for mouth sores.

Anymore anyone- lets try and add to the list!

brig

[zara]

Has anyone fed "Blue Chip Lami Lite"?
AJ is too fat and I constantly worry 'bout lami. He's never had it but I hear that this year it has been very prevalent. He can live on fresh air and gets hardly any feed, just enough for him to get his joint supplement and not on a lot of grass.

I was thinking of trying this product and I'm going to ring the co. next week but recommendations mean a lot Zx

[duckles]

Sorry Zara don't know about the Blue Chip Lami lite. I think the mint thing is very interesting. Before I changed the horses to where they are now, I did read a book on Horses on Pasture just to get a few tips. It said that the grazing should be poor, more like what sheep graze on that what cattle graze on.(Also mentioned the herbs) Actually I don't own the land so have no real imput but the owner is reseeding this year so I am going to suggest the mint and garlic and other herbs etc. Perhaps we have so much laminitis because grazing has become so rich in recent years.

[duckles]

Sorry Zara don't know about the Blue Chip Lami lite. I think the mint thing is very interesting. Before I changed the horses to where they are now, I did read a book on Horses on Pasture just to get a few tips. It said that the grazing should be poor, more like what sheep graze on that what cattle graze on.(Also mentioned the herbs) Actually I don't own the land so have no real imput but the owner is reseeding this year so I am going to suggest the mint and garlic and other herbs etc. Perhaps we have so much laminitis because grazing has become so rich in recent years.

[kateflashy]

May 24, 2008 10:16:37 GMT brigadier said:

Hey Kate that is really really interesting, I think because we have so little land here the farming industry has used so many pesticides etc that naturally occurring wild herbs are scarce. The only place you find naturally growing wild garlic etc is in conservation areas or heritage sites. You may have a point there. I will email the Trust and pass on that as it may be significant. when I did my training on pasture management they always said horse pasture should have a strip sown with herbs but you never/ever see it!

Does anyone else sow herbs into their pasture???

Comfrey has anti inflammatory benefits and can be used as a poultice for bruising.

Garlic has anti inflammatory benefits and blood thinnning properties

Mint MAY be beneficial for laminitis and presumably any nerve induced pain.

Alum (help here as it just something I remember- where do you get it-how do you use it? is good for mouth sores.

Anymore anyone- lets try and add to the list!

brig

we have loads growing here i know they eat garlic cos you can smell it on them and wild onions as well

and tons of dandy lions which is good for kidneys

[only1wu]

May 24, 2008 10:09:26 GMT haffyfan said:

Speaking of which...Wu...how is Travers doing??

Thanks for asking, Haffy. Travers is fine. He has no cereals now, just a high fibre diet and Formula4Feet. He came out of the winter a bit thin, but apparently that is what happens in the wild and is a good thing for laminitics. He looks great now, he is quite sound and full of bounce. We have a full programme of pleasure rides, veteran showing and riding club stuff planned for him and really can't wish for much more at the age of 20.

However, his pal died last week, so he is feeling a bit lost.

Hope Murphy is likewise OK.

Good luck to all the laminitis-prone horses and ponies out there. I keep my fingers crossed for you all.

Wu

[racaille]

Grass lami isn't usually a problem for us as there isn't any grass but this year it seems to have rained hugely in May and there is grass everywhere so everyone has turned their horses out on any old piece of ground. Bet there will be some problems.
Concussion lami on the hard ground is more likely here but I don't suppose that is a major problem in the UK?

[haffyfan]

May 25, 2008 22:49:36 GMT @only1wu said:

May 24, 2008 10:09:26 GMT haffyfan said:

Speaking of which...Wu...how is Travers doing??

Thanks for asking, Haffy. Travers is fine. He has no cereals now, just a high fibre diet and Formula4Feet. He came out of the winter a bit thin, but apparently that is what happens in the wild and is a good thing for laminitics. He looks great now, he is quite sound and full of bounce. We have a full programme of pleasure rides, veteran showing and riding club stuff planned for him and really can't wish for much more at the age of 20.

However, his pal died last week, so he is feeling a bit lost.

Hope Murphy is likewise OK.

Good luck to all the laminitis-prone horses and ponies out there. I keep my fingers crossed for you all.

Wu

I was told that too about condition and also aim for same thing...but try telling that to a haffy! So far so good so it's a case of fingers crossed and see how it goes as it is every year.

Poor old Travers...it's funny the effect of losing a friend has on them, they are clearly much 'deeper' than we give credit for. A friends horse had a heart attack and died out hacking several years back now and the horses were so subdued for several days as if they knew Cecil hadn't just gone to a new yard or something. They also refused to go down the road where he had died for about a week too.

Good luck with all your plans....sounds great!

[haffyfan]

May 26, 2008 3:19:50 GMT racaille said:

Grass lami isn't usually a problem for us as there isn't any grass but this year it seems to have rained hugely in May and there is grass everywhere so everyone has turned their horses out on any old piece of ground. Bet there will be some problems.
Concussion lami on the hard ground is more likely here but I don't suppose that is a major problem in the UK?

It is actually Racaille...especially in endurance horses.

Also can be a side effect of foaling too I believe and we have lost some top stallions (racing) to it too (I imagine by over feeding cereals at a guess?).

Lami is just a big problem full stop. I think one of the biggest problems is our equines in the UK are more ften than not obese. But because they are nearly all obese it becomes the accepted norm and when compared to others yours dosen't come across as obese if you understand what I am trying to say. Show producers use weight to improve the conditioned look of ponies etc rather than hours of working them to build up muscles/topline and strapping etc etc...the list is just endless really.

[haffyfan]

I think we should have a link to laminitis clinic on this thread as they are an absolute godsend to anyone going through this harrowing experience.

www.laminitisclinic.org/

[haffyfan]

Another link...this stuff really works!!! I would recommend it to anyone

Feet 1st
www.wrhorsesupplies.com/page4.htm

[lizziebrandy]

Lami is horrible...My pony has had some really bad bouts of it but we found that Spillers Happy Hoof is really good.
On the subjects of mint Happy Hoof contains both mint and garlic and it has done wonders for my native pony and our anglo-arab...
I hope none of your horses get lami because it looks like the most painful thing on earth
Lizzie

[brigadier]

May 26, 2008 8:26:03 GMT haffyfan said:

May 26, 2008 3:19:50 GMT racaille said:

Grass lami isn't usually a problem for us as there isn't any grass but this year it seems to have rained hugely in May and there is grass everywhere so everyone has turned their horses out on any old piece of ground. Bet there will be some problems.
Concussion lami on the hard ground is more likely here but I don't suppose that is a major problem in the UK?

It is actually Racaille...especially in endurance horses.

Also can be a side effect of foaling too I believe and we have lost some top stallions (racing) to it too (I imagine by over feeding cereals at a guess?).

Lami is just a big problem full stop. I think one of the biggest problems is our equines in the UK are more ften than not obese. But because they are nearly all obese it becomes the accepted norm and when compared to others yours dosen't come across as obese if you understand what I am trying to say. Show producers use weight to improve the conditioned look of ponies etc rather than hours of working them to build up muscles/topline and strapping etc etc...the list is just endless really.

Foaling mares can get it as a kind of toxic shock. Thoroughbred mares are more prone to this. First Ive heard re the stallions but I think you are right re the cereals and maybe the concussion damage from racing in the first place. The conditioning of show animals can be tantamount to cruelty in my opinion. They are obese, they are stuffed with oil and cereals, all 'false foods'.
I dont like to see it and I dont thnk they look attractive!
brig

[haffyfan]

Can't remember the horses now...I read it in a horse and hound article last year (i think) but probably the most famous casulty of lami was this this fella
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbaro

Also spotted this one when looking for that link
news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/low/other_sports/horse_racing/1959373.stm

[brigadier]

I think both these will be the toxic shock form of laminitis from the sounds of it- Im trying to remember the process but the blood supply is inconsistent leading to the laminae becoming engorged and then starved of blood, or visa versa. The damage leads to necrosis and nerve damage and after that theres no hope of repair so its curtains. Like you pointed out laminitis can occur after foaling and this is a similar thing. Its where the blood supply gets affected by drugs or surgery or severe trauma and is not solely due to a digestive upset. Will did my Hayes out and read up on it. The Barbaro story really touched the American nation and the horse lasted far longer than would have been expected.
Great links Haffy- thanks
brig

[haffyfan]

Thanks Brig, I really don't understand lami much at all. Robert Eustaces book and the clinic, my vet and farrier carried me through Murphs attacks.

[brigadier]

Hey Haffy you seem to understand it as much as anyone and youve experienced it. I never have so what I know is all text book and interest- yours is real time experience and that cannot be undermined!
Brig
x

[haffyfan]

May 26, 2008 20:10:09 GMT brigadier said:

I never have so what I know is all text book and interest-
Brig
x

I just wish more people could say that, I hope it stays that way for you (and everyone else in your shoes).
X

[only1wu]

My horse contracted severe lami in both front feet when there was no grass and he was not overweight. He was turned out on a frosty day (more fructans in the grass) and ate some Christmas tree that our neighbours had planted too close to the fence.

Our vet said that it was diet-related. Stuff that should have been digested in the foregut passed through to the hindgut, which could not cope with it. He also said the outcome could have been severe colic. The causes are the same, the effects different according to the individual metabolism of the horse.

While Travers was on box rest I cut him comfrey, mint, dandelions and wild garlic from our garden. He also had branches of willow. I was really afraid of doing this, but he was not allowed hay and I thought that it would vary his diet. He loved eating them all.

He also had Happy Hoof, which contains mint & garlic, Spiller's High Fibre Cubes and Speedibeet. All of these were recommended by the Laminitis Trust. He is on this diet now and looks really well at the age of 20.

I have never used Lami Lite. The Laminitis Trust recommended Formula4Feet and I used that instead. A friend in the USA sent me a report on research over there which recommended high doses of magnesium for laminitics, and the Formula contained more than their daily dose. Travers still has his Formula, and his feet, which were always weak, have never been better.

Hope this is useful to somebody. Haffy's links are really good.

Can't help thinking that climate change has something to do with the increased incidence of lami. The weather here has been totally un-typical for about 18 months ,the growth of grass likewise.

Good luck to all potential lami sufferers out there,

Wu

[joandlad]

Below is another interesting link. Chris Pollit is one of the leading researchers into the causes of lami. He's trying to pin down what causes the basement membrane to fail (we know what causes lami, most of the time, but don't know what actually happens at cellular level to cause the membrane to fail).

www.uq.edu.au/%7Eapcpolli/chrispollitt_whatislaminitis.htm

I feed Murph Top Spec Anti Lam. I think it's very important to ensure they are getting their required vits and mins. When you are muzzling and soaking hay it's easy for them not to get enough vits/mins. Don't want to teach grandmother to suck eggs but for those with diet related lami horses it's best to avoid feeds with molasses in. Despite what it might say on the front of the bag, you need to read the actual ingredients label (usually a white label sewn to the top of the bag). The vast majority of feeds on the market have molasses in them as horses love them and they are heavy and cheap - which manufacturers love!