How to Cure a Biter????

[r0450111]

I have recently taken a TBxWarmblood on loan. He is 21 years old and was an eventer. He never bit untill he was sent to an aussie event rider and this twit decided to 'show him who was boss'. Since then he bites whenever you go near his head. As you can imagine this makes putting a headcollar on, putting a bridle on, rugging, putting boots on, haying, feeding, in fact pretty much everything really difficult. At the moment i'm doing up the front of his rug with one hand on his headcollar! I'm more than willing to put in the hours to deal with this, but dont really know what to do for the best. He is REALLY food orientated.

Sometimes he just goes to nip, not bite. then other times he just seems to turn and goes for you with jaws wide open, ears pinned down and whites of eyes showing and he aims for your face. Usually i can dodge him, (he's only broken skin once and that was months ago). When he does this i growl at him and try to let him know that the behaviour is unacceptable.

Is there anymore i could do to reinforce the fact that biting is NOT acceptable???

[fimacg]

when Brave bit me I bit him back - he hasn't done it since but a hairy horse isn't a pleasant taste

[racaille]

I think there was a thread about this somewhere - FAQs perhaps?
Paco bit me once, just like you describe, teeth bared etc, and I was so cross - and in pain - that I thumped him really hard on the neck. He hasn't done it since. I think Brig had a solution that was similar but will have to find it....
In the meantime and to avoid major injury (going for your face is not funny) could you put a grazing muzzle on when you are tacking up - I do realise you would have to run the gauntlet to put his headcollar on and would have to take it off to get his bridle on, but it might give you some security while you're booting up, doing rugs etc?

[brigadier]

He seems to be a serious problem and it must be stopped. Wonder what he went through poor lad??

I know a horse that was a serious biter- it was his undoing in the end and when he went to another home he was put down! Real shame because it was something that could be managed.
The best suggestion Ive ever come across for a real serious biter is the hot potato (its not mine but someone elses from the forum- cant remember who but I do remember thinking thats genius!) Have a few baked ready and when he goes to bite you let him bite the potato- he may have a sore mouth but it should cure him and save him (and you) a lot of aggro!

You could also try the water pistol approach which does work also and I d use this one if the horse was just a nipper etc!

Let us know how these work for you?

[lizziebrandy]

Biters do get better normally, our Fox nips an stuff but when he trys it with me I just say 'no' in a firm voice and if he doesnt stop at that i raise my hand so I could push his head away. This could be a prop with your horsey though, but I like brigs idea,

[haffyfan]

Apologies for being incredibly noisy but is he a 'Welton' horse?

[r0450111]

He isnt a welton horse so far as i know. He's out of Dutch Courage i think!! Some more stuff that i should have said is he NEVER bites in the field. EVER!! He bites on the yard and in his stable.

I'd prefer not to have to lift my hand to him cos of his past course if he gets to that point i will. I'm thinking of getting a halter (parelli type) and doing loads of groundwork with him. Hopefully i could build up the trust between us and so he might not get so grumpy! I talk to him constantly and do things slowly. Like putting his boots on, i show them to him and let him sniff them before putting them on. He is better when i do that but he can still turn on me. If he does i have to tie him so short he cant move his head. Otherwise i get bitten.

One bonus is he will never be sold. He's with me and my trainer for life. No matter what. He's perfect in every other way but this. I have been handling him for months now but since i have just taken him on loan i now feel i have the 'right' to work on this issue.

[racaille]

Here's a thought: if he only does this on the yard or in his stable, could he associate them with work and that equals pain?
Paco only bit me when he was in hard training and my trainer thought he was just saying; Enough already!
Could he be in pain perhaps?

[r0450111]

He's checked regulary for his back, teeth ect. His back is very dipped and alwasy has been so we're extra careful to ensure his saddle fits properly. Once i get the halter i want to lead him out in hand for walks, try to get the trust there. I already know he does trust me to some extent cos other people have been known to have HUGE trouble trying to catch him whereas i've just to wander up to him carrot in hand, give him a scratch, ask how he is and put a headcollar on.

[zara]

AJ was and still is a biter. He generally doesn't mean harm but he can never be trusted! Only recently he bit my arm really badly and it was bruised from my shoulder to my wrist. This is my advice:
Never be in a stable with him without a head collar, preferably a rope one.
If your horse is food orientated use to your advantage and try "clicker training" this was my salvation. Teach your horse to "look away". This is invaluable if you feel threatened. There are numerable web sites about clicker training this is one:
theclickercenter.com/2004/ but I actually enlisted the help of an expert. Don't however go down the road of giving him loads of treats to appease him (this is a very easy trap to fall into - I know from experience)

Some horses, mine included, will not tolerate discipline and if you get into a fight you will lose. Remember, reward good behaviour and ignore the bad.

I know exactly what it is like to have a biter, I feel I am now in control and AJ is a million times better but it takes time and patience. Zx

[r0450111]

Clicker training looks really interesting!!! Shall have to give that a try! Its a relief to know its not just me. Although i know his past ect its hard to not take it personally! Especially when i'm knocking lumps out of myself and my degree to spend time with him!

I have been doing too much hand feeding. It can make life easier, especially when you just need to tie up a haynet and you havent a headcollar handy! I will be better and not do it as much from now on.

Sam doesnt seem to tolorate discipline, he either gets more angry or he dives as far as he can get away from you. He has been known to bite over his stable door and before anyone has had time to react he's at the back of his stable cowering. Poor old guy.

It will have to be a few weeks before i can afford to get him a halter and a DVD to explain how to clicker train properly. I just hope i can make life easier for us both!

[duckles]

Great stuff here, i remember one guy advised- put on a flash - will stop the biting whill you sort out the other issues. thought it was good advise. you can take it off for riding.

[zara]

I did consider a flash or even a grazing muzzle however i am so glad i didn't. The result of doing this can be disastrous as the horse just finds another way of attack which can be far worse ie striking out, kicking and knocking you over! You must treat the problem not cover it up.

To start clicker training get a clicker (£2 from pet shop), some treats (small ones) and a sweat scraper (or anything big enough for him to see and pick up). For safety stand in front of his door holding the treat in one hand and the clicker in the other. Hold the scraper up in front of him, the second he touches it, click and treat! You must be really quick with the click and treat tho so he associates this. You will be amazed how quick he will pick this up. Do short sessions every day, and hold the scraper in differrent positions. You can also start putting it on the floor in front of him so he has to walk to it - AJ learned to play "fetch" in his first 20 min session!

When he understands this add in voice commands and you can stop using the scraper. For instance to teach him to "look away" stand with him and as soon as he turns his head away from you for what ever reason, click and treat. He will soon cotton on and then add the command "look away". You must be so quick with the click and treat. AJ now uses this "trick" to ask for treats and if ever he corners me I just ask him to look away and i can "escape".

If you're interested my trainer e-mailed me some "instructions" and I'd gladly e-mail them to you if you pm me. Good luck, don't give up but stay safe Zx

Ps Libby's do a good rope halter fro £12.00

[jack]

dont feed by hand put it in a bucket or on the floor but not by hand
when we got jack he used to bit and we would clech our fist knuckle side up and let him try to bite and he couldnt because there is nothing to grab he was also hurt in the past whick is why i have him getting a bond will help

[ceej]

Modified to say sorry I had missed the clicker training bit - sounds interesting but I have never tried that so this is just from my experience of what has worked in the past...

its a difficult thing and each horse can be different in what works. There is a difference between biting because of lack of respect and too many titbits (all of which MUST be cut out if you have a biter - no exceptions) and biting from previous bad experinece and fear . In your case I certainly do not think that raising a hand is the best way...I do like the potato idea though! I bit a pony back many years ago but he was biting because of too many treats and not fear - I think your horse is confused and fearful so the only way to deal with this is calmly.

IMO your horse to learn to respect you in terms of you being the dominant person, but if he has had a bad past the ONLY way he will do this is by kind but firm consistency - do anything that may seem unfair and it ill be lost.

We had a very dangerous mare on our yard and no-one would go near her as she would put her ears back, bear her teeth and come for you. she was 'evil' apparently and the answer was to only go in the field with a bloody big stick. TOSH. talk about making it worse. Poor mare had so many issues and we became very good friends because i took the time to look a little deeper, but re the biting this is what worked for her:


In the wild, being able to put your muzzle on another before they have touched you, even if softly, means the horse is dominant. So on a very basic level YOU must be the one to greet him - not the other way round. Don't greet him with a hand to his muzzle, greet him by rubbing his head between his eyes - you have then approached him.

Another good tip is copying mutual grooming. the dominant horse starts mutual grooming. You need to go up to him - don't greet his face, but start scratching behind his withers. You can put a hand out to his muzzle and let him groom you back. Its the single best way to bond and works really well this time of year when they are itchy from rugs!

Other little things can help - make sure he ALWAYS goes backward when you enter the box, quietly and firmly.

Until this problem is sorted he does NOT put his muzzle on you - even nicely (save for when you reach out to him in the mutual grooming (and it can take time for them to realise but he will, and only respected friends in the wild do this) as you are saying to him, ok, you may groom me).

If he doesn try to put his muzzle on you, biting or not, gently push his head away from you and make him walk a step backward by pushing gently on his chest. That way you are gently telling him, no pal, this is my space and you have gone too far. This is done without raising a voice, or smacking or anything. It takes a lot of patience. Then when he has taken a step back continue stroking his neck or whatever so he know, oh ok when I respect her space she is nice to me..

another subtle trick is to find out who the leader of the herd is. Let you horse see you dominate that one - by making it take a step backward or something - when your horse sees you are above the head horse, then you are above him by default - this may seem really small but it is how horses organise their lives and live in a herd - to them its important, and we humans miss it all the time!! Ok so your horse will never think you are a horse, but they talk body language and it is up to us to speak to them on their level.

You would be surprised how much these little things that are so unrelated to his mouth will help that problem, but you need to apply this mentality to the way you treat him all the time. Its very tempting to try to address just the biting when often that isn't the real problem. However, dangerous biting where the skin could be broken cannot be accepted so if he does go at you with ears back, try to puff yourself up , put a hand up and say BACK very firmly. You need to look dominant without being violent. You would be surprised just what they pick up on!


On a different tack, Willow, when he returned was a biter, sometimes quite nasty. After spending some time with him I realised that it was a nervous thing, like a vice - he wasn't actually trying to bite people per say but he needed to have something between his fromnt teeth that he could gnaw!! So give him the end of a leadrope and he would chew it with his front teeth - relaxed instantly!!! all he had been trying to do on stressful situations (like grooming at that time as he had been abused) was grab onto the nearest thing to chew it - and that usually happened to be a person so he got a cuff and the situation got worse!! Now he can be groomed without needing the rope as he doesn't see it as a scary thing anymore!!! so give your chap a rope when you are grooming him and see what he does!!!

This is what I mean though - there is always an answer, and sometimes its just about trying different things. I always try the most gentle method first...

sorry I have gone on a bit! These kind of topics fascinate me more than anything because it all comes down to animal psychology and herd dynamics usually - and I have never read a monty roberts or a parelli book, or gone to any of their demos (i managed 5 minutes of parelli on H&C before I nearly slit my own wrists to that was the end of that) - it just comes from what I have noticed and how I have always looked at horses so maybe isnt particularly main stream!!

[duckles]

Ceej- just read your post here- its really good. I've never had a biter myself but I think this advice is applicable to all dealings with horses. I so agree with you that calm gentleness is the only way even though it can take forever.

[ceej]

yeah - its just basic herd fundimentals, and can help with almost all 'vices' which are actually permentations of natural behaviour, its just behaviour we find undesireable.

Often a horse that is used to humans and has accepted them as leaders dont need constant reminders (like giving a treat is effectively submissive) but lots of horses seem to accept the breakings in the rules ONCE the hierarchy has been set...
for instance - Harry is defo boss over willow but they will share a bucket of feed (harry gets first bite, but any horse other than willow would be firmly told to bugger off) -the hierarchy is set, willow isnt going to challenge it and so he is allowed some perks for being 'friends' with Harry (as they do have closer companions definately)

- its the same with us....a truely bonded horse is one that is below you, but choses you as a companion over say another horse...they are allowed perks for being your friend but when push come to shove you are boss. Until that stage, there are no perks as such!! does that make sense? As I say, this is only how I see things, I personally think its right (!) but I know its not a common way of thinking so happy to be challenged!!!

[charleykips]

I used to work with a nasty horse who would bite whenever he got chance, im not one for hitting them, he nearly strangled me one day when i was leaving the stable he grabbed my hood and dragged me back in i lost my balance and was hanging from his mouth. I got a spray bottle filled it with water and every time he went to bite me i sprayed him straight in his face , it took a few times but he soon learnt no to bite me, a lfet the bottle hanging off my belt loops as a reminder to him and he never bit me again.

[brigadier]

Ceej
Your post here is excellent! Really enjoyed reading it.

CK- I like the spray treatment- works on dogs etc too!