Turn on the Forehand

[brigadier]

Thought I would do a thread re this movement as whilst having a training session last night and working on a variation of this movement it was clear my trainer and I differed re our aids.

Im from the school of thought that the inside leg always creates the bend so in doing a TOTF to the right, the inside leg is the right leg and asks the horses quarters to move away to the left, but it does so by staying on the girth to maintain the bend to the right and by using an on off squeeze and keeping the outside rein (left)with a steady contact, the horse doesnt go forwards but yileds to the pressure of the leg and moves his quarters away.

My trainer is of the school of thought that the inside leg moves backwards and the pressure on the horses flank moves the quarters away.
Ive come across this method many times before but have never used it. But if you read any amount of books on the subject the aids are always described diffferently.

What do other people do and why?

[zara]

I'm with you brig, inside leg on the girth to create bend Zx

[scattymare]

I was taught the other way, in that your inside leg moves slightly back to move the quarters over whilst your left leg remains on the girth to 'hold' the horse together. Same with the rein contact in that the right rein is used lightly to guide the horse but a contact remains in the left rein to stop over flexion to the right or the horse just spinning round.

Haven't done it for years now mind!

[kitcat]

I was taught the same as Scatty.

[haffyfan]

Apr 16, 2009 9:09:51 GMT kitcat said:

I was taught the same as Scatty.

...and me too, and thats how I taught mine...also it easily built up from asking them to do it from on the floor with hand pressure I found.


I'm now thinking this will also possibly link into a similiar question reagarding reining back and methods used/taught

[spotti]

What you say makes complete sense Brig, but I'd have done it the second way (leg back to move quarters)...I suppose the bend would be better and more suppling for the horse, but probably the second way is easier to teach?

[brigadier]

I Find the logic behind the leg back version puzzling. I can see that you are building up from the hand moving the quarters over and the horse should yield to the pressure from the leg behind the girth but for me the natural progression from TOTF is leg yield and in that movement the horse should remain flexed to the inside with the inside leg on the girth asking the horse to move forwards and over. then when the horse progresses to shoulder in and half pass it still respects the inside leg creating the bend. Mind you- in half pass the horse moves away from the outside leg- so maybe that is the logic behind it?
I cannot imagine doing a leg yield with my leg back.
Its a b*gger that there is this confusion because I properly confused my horse the other night as the instructor gave me the aids and we both struggled to do the movement - it was turn about the forehand on a 10m cirle, now it was only after that I realised what she had been asking me to do and if she had said go do a turn about the forehand on a 10m cirlce I would have done it.
On a slightly different note- does anyone else find visualisation techniques help their riding?

[ceej]

now I have already done a very long and rambling reply to this about why is the leg that moves back the inside leg only to realise it is because the horses head is inclining away from the haunches therefore to the inside. PING! I understood what you mean Brig. (although deep down I still question the term inside and outside leg for many of the lateral moves so I woudlnt get hung up on which leg it is (as I did), rather than what the position of the leg is saying to the horse!)

However I have been taught by putting the inside leg back slightly to move the haunches away from you. I see your difficulty with leg yield - in both moves the horses flexion is to the inside so why are they different? I think TOTF can be looked at one of two ways 1) as a move where the haunches are moving away from the leg or 2) where the horse is flexing around the inside leg - effectively actually the horse is doing both, but more moving away through the haunches than coming round at the front, so number one wins. Also, as TOTF is a basic move taught to young horses I think they would struggle to learn the subtleness of flexing around the inside leg when effectively the move is to teach them how to deal with their back legs laterally (by crossing them, which some struggle with). By thinking of the move as flexing around the inside leg (ie from the front) the young horse may be confused and struggle to understand his front legs need to remain in the same area rather than moving forward. Leg Yield is different in that the are steps are more forward than sideways so the move is more subtle (much more about flexion at the front than the back) so the horse does not need to move away as in TOTF.

Do you think that makes any sense?

[brigadier]

It does Ceej completely and because I started to think about this in more depth Im now looking at the movement completely differently. The horses Ive taught this to in the past (inside leg on the girth)do struggle to get it initially but once theyve got it it seems a much more refined aid and seems to encourage the horse to become ch lighter and rounder in profile which opposes the traditional view that TOTF is a counter productive movement as it can put the horse on the forehand and is only useful for opening gates. However because of the use of the leg in half pass Im starting to think that the horse should be taught both, the leg back as a simple move away from the pressure (the horses natural inclination is to press back against pressure) so that it understands this when opening gates and later when doing renvers/half pass etc but also from pressure on the girth so that it understands that it can yield to the pressure and maintain bend. Im now trying to work out the best order/progression for this!!

[ceej]

I would say that the first level would be to teach the young horse the simple, legs over step first (ie putting leg behind the girth and then refining this move to be a more rounded one as you say - i found with my old arab who I taught both TOTF and LY that the more subtle move of leg on the girth was taught best at LY as the horse already had impulsion and could be praised as flexion started - weight (seatbones) are easier to use when moving and this is what I think teaches the horse nest at first when doing LY (but I dont think weight helps much when FIRST doing TOTF they dont listen to the subtelties enough - then when you come back to TOTF after other lateral moves, you would find the horse needs less pushing round - it has started to understand bending round. Not that we ever got much further than the basics before she was cruely taken from me (loved that horse0 but thats another story,and now my seat is so ruibbish I doubt it has any of the subtlety to do any of this) I would imagine most horses when they start on TOTF dotn know enough about bending to get that move without extra pushing from the lgs.

Og course RS ponies will need the legs as they probably havent refined any of the lateral moves!

[brigadier]

Yes the leg back would be the first because it follows on from whats taught in the stable I think. I compromised today and did a bit of both and got a passable movement, good exercise for the horse really softening in the mouth!

[ceej]

inspired I started to teach harry today and we had two cross over steps - was very proud! Found it much easier to start parallel against a fence and turning away from it to assist with teaching him not to move forward though

[duckles]

I've been reading this with great interest. I was thought that you put leg back for both TOF and for LY. (and keep outside leg on girth to keep impulsion). While I agree with Ceej about seat bones being the best aid really if you and your horse are sensitive enough, I see the logic of keeping the inside leg on the girth and I think the seatbone would be more effective with that. (Presumablely outside leg also on girth??)
On the leg yielding subject, do you find it easier to introduce in walk or trot?? We were taught trot was the way to do it, but I find with JB that I had to intoduce it in fine in walk as he finds it difficult in trot. Actually I think that is because he finds flexing very hard in trot, possibly from all his old (and existing) pelvic, poll problems- I blame this rather than my riding (which I am sure is at fault also) because I have no difficulty leg yielding in trot with any other horse.
On the same, if slightly different subject, any tips for straight rein backs?? JB gets the walking backwards no problem, but bends to one side, I suppose its me but no matter how staight I keep myself, this seems to happen.
Finally, I get beautiful, 10 out of 10 TOF when I turn for home!!!

[brigadier]

ha ha- like the last comment Duckles.

Leg Yield, inside leg on the girth to press the horse over - dont ask for too much bend, your horse needs to be straight with just the slightest flexion to the inside and make sure you slide your bum to the inside too so your leg becomes longer but do not lean, press your inside shoulder back to stop this. the outside leg remains passive just behind the girth but dont push it back- once you sit to the inside it goes there naturally and is there to stop your horse drifting to the track. A really good exercise is to do it on the circle, spiral in then leg yield out, but only a couple of good steps then use the outside leg to hold the new circle for a few strides then repeat. Here you will find how effective the outside leg becomes- practice this a bit before trying it on the straight so the horse learns the movement, the bend is created by the circle so all you need to do is create and contain the movement.
Wlak ot trot? Depends on the horse and the rider. Mostly the rider and their understanding of the use of the outside rein, which needs to be firm and allowing at the same time for trot. Most horses will find it easier to do trot but not if they are excessively on the forehand as they cant lift their shoulders up and to the side. Also in walk it all happens a bit slower which can be a good thing. All that said- I prefer and get better results in trot!

Rein Back- only if the horse is good at halt in that he is soft and allowing through the jaw and can carry the riders weight in the halt ie no dipping of the spine. Then with someone assisting on the ground at first and only one or two steps. Its one of those exercises that I dont teach properly until much later but I expect the horse to yield backwards for emergency purposes. If he is going to the side he is evading something, possibly too much too soon or tightness somewhere. Try just one step then praise and walk forwards. Remeber only if the halt is established!
Hope that helps

[suzii]

sorry if i'm repeating anything!

I put my inside leg back as although it is used on the girth to create bend, i it also asks them to move sideways, as in shoulder in or leg yeild. I may be wrong but I didn't think there was a big amount of bend, or at least you don't ask for too much as it comes naturally when you move the hindquaters over. I use my inside rein softly to create enough bend and the outside rein to prevent the horses spinning round of moving forwards.

As for rein back, my instructor taught sprite to do it by sliding both her legs backwards and using very soft presure on the reins to prevent him moving forward. Eventually, you can decrease the rein pressure to prevent yourself from dragging the horse back, so you are pushing them back rather than pulling.

[brigadier]

Suzii- there is no sideways movement in shoulder in (if done corectly) the horse remains on the straight line or the circle, if you put your inside leg back you will move the quarters and lose the flexion of the shoulders so in effect you are just leg yielding on a straight line. A very common fault but shoulder in is a very tricky movement to do properly and te rider needs to understand what they are trying to achieve.

[suzii]

i see what you mean. does look as though the horse is going sideways, i suppose i meant by what i said is that the inside leg on the girth asks for the forward movement, the one that means you are moving from one place to another, turn on the forehand is done more 'on the spot' I think there is some sense in that haha!