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Post by fleabitten on Dec 25, 2008 10:20:56 GMT
I was watching the showjumping on BBC 2 on Sat and there were some horses with what seemed to be a pelham (or a double bridle) with a flash noseband and a (running) martingale? Surely you cant use them all together??  I was also watching the end of the pony christmas showjumping league at my local centre and there was one cobby type with a dutch gag (small hole, big hole and then another small hole) and a flash - dont think theres anything wrong with that but it also had a standing martingale on. I was under the impression you couldnt jump in a standing martingale?  The pony carried its head high but the martingale was always taut. I thought they were only supposed to act if it did put its head up too hight. It was steady enough until it saw a jump and then it was whizzing round. Any thoughts? |
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Post by maximum on Dec 25, 2008 11:25:29 GMT
If you show jump you can do anything you want it seems!!
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Post by brigadier on Dec 25, 2008 12:20:50 GMT
Ditto above!!!
Its not 'considered' correct but showjumpers seem to do as they like! Consider the action of the pelham which by its very nature causes the horse to open its mouth (its a lever) and then to strap it shut with a flash is just barbaric!
All your points raise questions Flea!
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Post by flyingfox on Dec 25, 2008 17:46:51 GMT
they seem to like to add as many gadgets and straps to there horses as they can, plus flashs seem very 'in' at the moment. personally i'm happy with my drop noseband, fastened loosly and my eggbutt french link. my theroy is the less straps/gadgets you have the faster it is to tack up, and the kinder it is for the horse. dressage horses probably have it the kindest as the rules are so strict about what you can and can't have.
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Post by fleabitten on Dec 25, 2008 18:19:53 GMT
my theroy is the less straps/gadgets you have the faster it is to tack up, quote] good point!! ;D I was relived to be able to just get rid of the martingale on Connie and Princesses bridles, cos you have to think about where the straps go and they get all tangled and its a total NIGHTMARE to clean them. I agree - dressage keeps everything simple that way although they seem to compensate with bling  |
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Post by charleykips on Dec 25, 2008 19:12:44 GMT
I hate seeing loads of gadgets on horses, i once knew a girl who had an ex pacer who was ridden in a waterford snaffle  and a market harbrough. It threw both her sis and her on the roads and broke bones each time so i agreed to ride it, the first thing i did after riding him for the first time was strip him right down the bare basics, eggbutt snaffle. He went lovely once he realised that his head wasnt tied in and that horrible bit was gone. My pet hate is seeing children or inexperienced riders using things like gags, spurs, standing martingales ect, i often will stop the kids in the school and give them a lecture on the use of these things and most of the time once you tell them what discomfort they can cause they take notice and change what they are doing but you still get the odd one who basically doesnt give a s..., All i use on Kip is a happy mouth eggbutt and a running martgingale just coz he can be a bit fresh at times and his head goes skywards lol |
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haffyfan
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Post by haffyfan on Dec 26, 2008 15:47:48 GMT
I was watching the showjumping on BBC 2 on Sat and there were some horses with what seemed to be a pelham (or a double bridle) with a flash noseband and a (running) martingale? Surely you cant use them all together?? I can't believe how many of them now see the need to use a mechanicial (usually 'german' ) hackamore AND a bit too |
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Post by fleabitten on Dec 26, 2008 16:02:11 GMT
Never noticed that - sounds daft to me!
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Post by lizziebrandy on Dec 26, 2008 18:16:28 GMT
I thought the point of a hackamore is that its bitless? Why would you then out a bit in?
Brandy used to have a pelham bit, it was such a faff to get on & off...and after a while he just got stronger and stronger with it, so we swapped to a different bit, which is much simpler and does a better job at stopping him. I do ride in spurs but only when he gets stubben on me an I think for him, a simple light touch with spurs is better than sitting and kicking.
Ahh the wonderful world of tack...its so confusing, mind you horses are confusing lol
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Post by fimacg on Dec 29, 2008 21:27:46 GMT
I have downgraded all my horses to loose ring french link snaffles, cavesson noesbands, none wear martingales and the lighter the touch the better they go.
At the christmas show I took Chomps to on Saturday, so many of the horses had their heads pulled in with 3 ring gags, flashes, martingales and other gadgets in a psuedo outline... and there was Chompy in his mose basic tack jumping brilliantly in the warm up arena and going in a proper outline so that he turned all the heads...
Shame he suffered from stage fright and had a few fences down in the main arena.
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tory
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Post by tory on Jan 23, 2009 15:48:10 GMT
Sorry to stir up a hornet nest but please remember it is a forum and so would be boring is we all had the same views!
I do not consider a waterford snaffle to be a 'horrid' bit. The design of a waterford is such that a horse can not lean on it and thus encourage the horse to sit up and 'carry itself'. There is no pole pressure, etc exerted on the horse like there is with other bits, say a gag. Why do you state that its a horrid bit? What is your basis?
A hackamore and a bit is just a stupid contradiction. If the horse is that strong, stick a cherry roller gag on it or a stronger hackermore - both is just wrong.
I also agree that a double/pelham, flash and standing martingale is also excessive. However, I ride all my horses in a loose running martingale as standard as i appreciate the neck strap and the extra secuity if somnething does go wrong - the matigale should only ever come into play if the horses head comes up above the natural angle, ie when they are thoring their head about/panicking!
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Post by fimacg on Jan 23, 2009 17:17:09 GMT
tory I agree with you in the right hands a waterford can be a brilliant bit, in the wrong hands it can be a saw...
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Post by brigadier on Jan 23, 2009 18:20:00 GMT
I too have mixed feelings about waterfords. I think it really is down to the experience/skill of the rider.
I watched a jumping clinic recently where one rider had a waterford on. The horse was doing its best in spite of her riding and even the instructor (top international showjumper in his day) tactfully suggested a milder bit. However I can think of a dozen horses who would have appreciated a waterford but with that essential 'good pair of hands'
So I think its like anything -In the wrong hands........!
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haffyfan
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Post by haffyfan on Jan 23, 2009 19:08:10 GMT
I agree that it depends on the horse/riders hands but although I am not a bit fan really choosing to start my two and then remain bitless, if I were to go down that route at a later date or with a new horse I would always opt for a waterford as first choice to try, followed by a cherry roller for all the raesons stated above. I have found most horses really like the feel and flexibility of the mouthpiece with a waterford and also like the moving bits and bobs on the cherry roller.
Cherry Rollers are amazing for strong horses as they just cannot get a hold on it, I do not understand now why so many people resort to horrific looking gags/nosebands etc etc, The horses are strapped down with more chains and leather straps than a dominatrix would require, when this relatively simple bit really works. Just look how strong Ginny Eliott/Ian Starks eventer Murphy Himself was and what was he ridden in.... by todays standards I guess he would be wearing half the tack shop!
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Post by duckles on Jan 24, 2009 13:52:16 GMT
Excuse my ignorance here but what is a waterford bit like? Haffy, I am interested to say that you would use it before a snaffle- why is this? I have a horse who is strong, he is ridden in a snaffle. I did try bitless but he became stronger! I took off his noseband and it made no difference. He pulls my arms forward a lot and puts his head down as if he is uncomfortable and head shakes! Makes for a difficult ride! If he takes off, you can't stop him but he doesn't do it often really and he is so careful that you know you will be alright even if he does (although it is not pleasant). I see no point in a dutch gag as its a snaffle but stronger and I can't see it helping. I did try a pelham (because it is straight) but I worried so much about it being harsh that I hardly used my reins!! He didn't go any better anyway. His back has being checked (and I was told he was perfect by a chiro who nearly always finds something wrong), his teeth are done every year and he has excellent conformation and really good feet. I have come to think he just doesn't like being ridden. But do you think the waterford would be worth a try?
By the way, I agree that gadgets that strap down a horse only make a strong one stronger. I have never seen the point of it all-
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haffyfan
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Post by haffyfan on Jan 24, 2009 14:59:35 GMT
The Waterford is actually a loose ring snaffle. It has lots of flexible bumps/nobbles, which can act as pressure points. The great flexibility discourages the horse from leaning on it hence it's common use is for stronger horses but as backed up in the below article is also great for mouthing youngsters amongst other things. I actually found a pro waterford article too [url=http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/horse-care-index/1370/40724.html?cid=1370&aid=40724 ]here![/url] |
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Post by brigadier on Jan 24, 2009 15:41:07 GMT
Interesting link that Haffy!
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Post by duckles on Jan 24, 2009 17:05:01 GMT
Thanks Haffy- that is interesting.
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Post by solomon on Feb 1, 2009 18:23:38 GMT
My new loan horse goes in a waterford and i was always told snaffle is best but he does try to gnaw on it all the time i guess the only answer is to try something else, he never tries to run off, lazy if anything but was put in it by previous owner as she says he leans on anything else.
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Post by brigadier on Feb 1, 2009 19:34:18 GMT
hows it going solomon?
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Post by solomon on Feb 1, 2009 21:10:57 GMT
Thanks for asking Brig, well ok i think . He is a kind horse, who never feels scary but i rode him yesterday and felt like a beginner, he struggles with bending and has the most uncomfortable trot at times. I really need to have a few lessons on him to work out the best way to ride him. I am so worried that i have taken on too much. I love his placid temperament tho' got him in from the field today leading him by his rug. He just feels very unbabanced and a little lazy. Lots of work to be done.
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Post by solomon on Feb 6, 2009 22:32:24 GMT
Update on Peter, i didn't ride him all week and today he was NOT lazy a good boy tho' things going well. I love him.
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for so much hard work we thank ye!!
and a market harbrough. It threw both her sis and her on the roads and broke bones each time so i agreed to ride it, the first thing i did after riding him for the first time was strip him right down the bare basics, eggbutt snaffle. He went lovely once he realised that his head wasnt tied in and that horrible bit was gone. My pet hate is seeing children or inexperienced riders using things like gags, spurs, standing martingales ect, i often will stop the kids in the school and give them a lecture on the use of these things and most of the time once you tell them what discomfort they can cause they take notice and change what they are doing but you still get the odd one who basically doesnt give a s..., 
