Starting more difficult movements

[fleabitten]

When could you start doing more difficult movements with your horse or pony (no matter what age) - at what stage; what basics do they have to grasp first? And what should you start with? Extension and collection or lateral work? Do you have to teach them to work in an outline first or does that come with doing the more difficult stuff?

Just wondering.

[abi]

i'd say do whatever you feel you're capable of- nobody knows your pony better than you do.

lateral work is a good place to start but some ponies find it tricky, and extension and collection can be basic and fun!

i'd have a play with as much as you can, ask your instructor what else you could try and she/he will be able to help you! x

[brigadier]

There is a set method for taking a horse through training to a certain level, but what I have found is that all horses are different and some excel at some things and not at others. In general your horse needs to be relaxed at all three basic paces, accepting the contact in a novice long and low outline before you can teach or develop the paces with either ext/collection or lateral HOWEVER
some horses naturally collect, some naturally extend, some find it easy to move laterally. I know a bloke whose horse could do the most perfect canter/walk transitions but not leg yield. The est school of thought IMO is that collection comes before extension in the school, but its not always like that in reality. My first horse gave me passage when I asked for collection the very first time but couldnt lengthen to save his life!
Once youve got the three basic paces turn on the forehand and leg yield are useful to work towards other movements, and then not forgetting counter canter and turn on the haunches but the best guide is look at the prelim and novice tests- they in effect take you through a progression towards higher levels.

[maximum]

in order to correctly do collection and extension you need to have engagement which lateral work will develop.

remember the scales of training and move up them only when the previous one has been achieved.

Rhythm (Takt)

2. Looseness (Losgelassenheit)

3. Contact and Acceptance of the Bit (Anlehnung)

4. Impulsion (Schwung)

5. Straightness (Geraderichtung)

6. Collection (Versammlung)

as you can see collection is only really done once the others have been achieved.

and isnt shwung the best word ever!!

[otto]

Sept 2, 2008 20:48:43 GMT maximum said:

remember the scales of training and move up them only when the previous one has been achieved.

Sorry but I have to disagree with that. The scales of training shouldn't be taken as a 1,2,3 etc. For most of the elements there is a degree of over lap that must be there to achieve anything.
Rythm is impossible without a degree of looseness (or relaxation as its often called), impulsion, acceptance of contact.
Looseness requires some acceptance of contact, impulsion and straightness starts to play a part and so on.
If you waited to achieve one level before moving on to the next then nothing would be achieved as a) there is not a point where you can say a horse has achieved an element, its a constantly moving goal post and b) it is essential for other elements to be worked on to improve any on the levels.
JMHO

[brigadier]

Now this gets really interesting!

I think what has to be understood whatever method you endorse or practice is the ability of the horse and use what works with the horse.
I fully accept the wisdom of the scales of training and a horse working in a long/low novice outline will be achieving more or less consistently levels 1-5 and may already be showing the first stages of collection. But in all the stages we are talking about three basic paces- so in effect fifteen stages or levels before we talk about 'higher' or more difficult movements so of course there will be overlap as not all horses are consistent in all three paces.

And this is where the skill of the rider comes in. Would anyone consider doing leg yield canter where their horse isnt straight, or has enough impulsion. But at trot it may have so you would use it- also lateral work can develop rhythm- read Crossleys work on shoulder in to understand how important an exercise that is.
I agree with both Maxie AND Otto on this but also add there are no absolutes-
I am also slightly concerned that the BHS in their inimitable fashion are starting to get a bit hung up on the scales of training to the exclusion of other ideas, theories and practices. And are they going down this line because they are resisting the influences of natural horsemanship and the effect that it is having on the horse population in general?
Ive noticed some of the BHS training days are scales of training based- we are only obliged to do one per year (or is it two years-cant remember) and if that is the topic on offer then thats too exclusionary for me. Im from a classical training background but do not endorse or respect anything that is too rigid or fixed to allow the natural ability of horse or rider to shine through and in being so fixed does not let the rider (or the horse for that matter) achieve what this (at hobby level) is all about- enjoyment!
Long live diversity of horse/rider and training!

[fimacg]

I agree with all of the above, from personal experience Figaro had a really unbalanced canter and just couldn't get the hang of left canter until he was about 6.5yrs old but ask him to do leg yield, shoulder in, turn on the forehand, turn on the haunches in walk or trot and he picked it up in minutes, he would master novice to medium movements in the lower paces in one lesson but a simple canter on a circle... well you may as well have asked him to sing the national anthem...

We finally cracked the canter through practicing jump of turns and suddenly it was like a flash of the blindingly obvious and next time he got the canter spot on and we never looked back.

As with all things its horses for courses.

[maximum]

Sept 3, 2008 4:13:19 GMT otto said:

Sept 2, 2008 20:48:43 GMT maximum said:

remember the scales of training and move up them only when the previous one has been achieved.

Sorry but I have to disagree with that. The scales of training shouldn't be taken as a 1,2,3 etc. For most of the elements there is a degree of over lap that must be there to achieve anything.
Rythm is impossible without a degree of looseness (or relaxation as its often called), impulsion, acceptance of contact.
Looseness requires some acceptance of contact, impulsion and straightness starts to play a part and so on.
If you waited to achieve one level before moving on to the next then nothing would be achieved as a) there is not a point where you can say a horse has achieved an element, its a constantly moving goal post and b) it is essential for other elements to be worked on to improve any on the levels.
JMHO

I agree with you and it shows why you should not post when tired and in a hurry.

Perhaps I should have said until a DEGREE of the element is reached,
I still stand by the fact you cannot get correct collection without working through the other levels/stages/scales whatever you want to call them
I was using it as an example of how a horse moves up the levels. I agree there is overlap in the stages and did not explain myself very well.

I do however disagree with 'there is not a point where you can say a horse has achieved an element" - so what you are saying is that you can never judge a horse and say 'it was loose' or ' he was straight' ? straighness is straight and you cant be straighter than straight!

I also did not mean to imlpy that once a stage is reached you move on and do not use the others- I rather thought people on this forum were intelligent to realise as you improve the more advanced work then the basic work itself still requires to be worked on.

Far too many people become obsessed with 'outline' and think if they have their horses head down its all hunky dory and its a shame that some judges are unable to see through this and mark down horses which are not loose, through and supple just because they are consistant with their head position!

If the basics are not correct and the horse is not working with free forward movement, rythym and correct bend(straighness) then how can it correctly work at the higher levels?
just my thoughts

[brigadier]

Maxie-
you are correct in what you say about collection- how many horses do you see with their heads pulled into their chests and nothing coming from behind because they are so stiff and unyeilding. Yet their riders mistakenly believe they are collected. I think that is why I liked the session I watched with Anya Berren so much- all the riders (with their fancy double bridles and Spanish plaits had to let go of the horses gobs and work them from behind!)
I also know what you mean about answering something when tired! How many times have I typed something then read it back to reveal gobblygook! Perils of being a mother and not getting enough sleep or time! I only read books on holiday now- its killing me!

[ceej]

I think the scales ar a very usesul aid to progression. I think, simply put, you may achieve elements of a higher scale as part of the course whilst trying to achieve a lower one. For instance, in gaining rhythm, your horse may naturally become more collected or loose, but just because he shows elements of that scale doesnt mean it has been achieved fully in all three gaits. Harry is currently working I would say on loosness, which he has to a tea in trot...cor what a sitting trot now (it was very bumpy!). As part of being loose, his impulsion has improved no end in sitting trot because he has naturally relaxed enough to use his back. BUT have we mastered impulsion - hell no! it is currently only a by-product of relaxing (which we havent mastered in the other gaits yet!) I think this is what maxie means rather than the literal interpretation - I am not yet working on impulsion - he is too tight in the back and neck, so its far to early to be focussing on that..it still happens in the odd moment of genius from him though!

Hope that makes sense.

And Brigs - BHS Its my biggest gripe with the, they always do it - obsessive following to t he exclusion of all else!

[brigadier]

What youve said makes so much sense Ceej- how can you work on impulsionif your horse is too tight and stiff for it to be an advantage- yet in my early dressage tests with my first horse- all said needs more impulsion- it was like a mantra but I knew the horse needed to go forward but as soon as you asked for collection he could give passage! Weird but true!
So spot on!
And just looked back at this and it reads gobbleygook- so what I said earlier is also correct- I can talk cr*p!!! ;D

[slinky]

Sept 5, 2008 20:18:57 GMT brigadier said:

What youve said makes so much sense Ceej- how can you work on impulsionif your horse is too tight and stiff for it to be an advantage- yet in my early dressage tests with my first horse- all said needs more impulsion- it was like a mantra but I knew the horse needed to go forward but as soon as you asked for collection he could give passage! Weird but true!
So spot on!
And just looked back at this and it reads gobbleygook- so what I said earlier is also correct- I can talk cr*p!!! ;D

It sounds like the horse is not giving true Passage, rather using it as an evasion to not go forward freely.
Therefore you are uttterly correct, and it's not weird at all ;D

[brigadier]

No slinky- it wasnt an evasion ( not technically as he was probably doing what I asked, it was me who was getting it wrong))- it was like he upped a gear and did this most wonderful passage, flaoty and rhythmical- my trainer pooped himself and offered me a lot of money but like a fool I turned it down. Id have been better taking it and buying a less complicated horse as I d have progressed quicker but the foolishness of youth and all that!

(He was one of those horses that when you tuned him out he would either passage around the field for an hour or do the most wonderful Pepe le Phew canter (like the skunk after the cat)- tail curled over his back. Ive never seen a horse like it in the field but I was too inexperienced to reproduce it anywhere else and too arrogant to admit it!
The very last dressage test I did with him, I actually though I was getting somewhere- something had clicked but alas never got to find out. He was found dead in his field a few short weeks later!

[slinky]

Ooops! I got that the wrong way round.
None of us are perfect, and it would be great if more people had you're attitude.
Don't be too hard on yourself. Clearly you had a positive, and progressing partnership. It must have been a very sad loss.

It's easy to look back and think "if only I'd......" and beat ourselves up over something we've done, when really we should learn and use the experience in a positive way in the future.

This is the great thing with horses, we never stop learning, and they never stop teaching us.

[brigadier]

Youre speaking my language- I always think- theres always a horse that will sort you! and theres always a rider who knows more. And now Im getting older I do tend to pick and choose what I ride!!!

[maximum]

and of course we are all wiser and far less competitive as we get older *crosses fingers as she tells whopping lie*