suzii
Novice Willy Washer
Officially In Love With A Young Bay Man :D
Posts: 882
|
Post by suzii on Jul 27, 2008 18:11:50 GMT
Another post on outlines - sorry! I am just sooo confused about the whole thing! Right: As far as I know, and outline means that a horse is carrying himself in a way that will in the long term be better for him to be ridden. His back muscles come up and he is using them rather than hollowing his back and potenially damaging it. The head comes round because thats the effect the back muscles have on the spine and it brings the hindquaters under meanings it is being powered from the back and being pushed foward. This makes the horse look like it's in a sort of arch shape. Is that right?? Also - I hear various things about using your rein aids and the bit in the horses mouth to bring his head under, which has the effect of lifting the spine to make his back muscles work. However I do not see how fiddling with the reins or squeezing them or whatever makes a horse engage his hindquaters. But, as far as I can see, this seems to be the most effective way to get a horse to look as though it is going correctly - or is it just evading by holding it's head funny?? am I just being difficult or is there truth in what I'm saying and how do professional dressage peoples make a horse work correctly
|
|
|
Post by spotti on Jul 27, 2008 18:22:28 GMT
I think there may be some truth in it somewhere, but by fiddling with the reins you'll only get the horse to look as if its going correctly...which kind of defeats the point. The whole point of working in an outline as you so rightly said is to 'get a horse carrying himself in a way that will in the long term be better for him to be ridden' , which if you just make him look like he's doing it right, then its not going to be as good in the long term.
I'm no expert (in fact the complete opposite) but that's what I understand from the term 'outline'. Feel free to correct me if thats complete twoddle!
|
|
|
Post by fleabitten on Jul 27, 2008 18:23:59 GMT
I think its mainly leg and seat aids - you must never try and hold a horses head in with your hands, you are just supporting it with a steady and elastic contact. You must start with getting the horse supple, balanced and rythmical on the flat first. I am not totally sure how you actually teach a horse to work in an outline. You can also do poles to encourage the horse to step under its body, therefore rounding its back and carrying the rider more easily.
not really sure what all that was about or where it came from - hidden in the dusty depths of my mind! I think its all right..!
Im sure there is someone better qualified to tell everyone about outlines and stuff - especially about teaching the horse to ride correctly, im interested in hearing how to do that. My instructor made us halt and move our hands gently to move the horses head from side to side whilst sitting deep with our legs closed round the horses sides - it didnt work for me but i saw the difference in the girl beside me. And then at the end of my canter my horse went on the bit. Apparently you're meant to sit quietly and keep a firm steady contact on the reins to keep the outline.
|
|
suzii
Novice Willy Washer
Officially In Love With A Young Bay Man :D
Posts: 882
|
Post by suzii on Jul 27, 2008 18:35:19 GMT
Yeah moving hands gently side to side seems to be how my horse has been trained to do it. But I'm quite worried that this is just him looking like he's in an outline and not actually being in one.
|
|
|
Post by fleabitten on Jul 27, 2008 18:50:17 GMT
Ask an instructor - get a private lesson. It will help loads! I take it you already have a horse? Or are you getting another - because in your post about getting things for first time horse owning I assumed you were about to get one???
|
|
|
Post by fleabitten on Jul 27, 2008 18:54:15 GMT
Never mind about the last bit - have resolved that issue!
|
|
suzii
Novice Willy Washer
Officially In Love With A Young Bay Man :D
Posts: 882
|
Post by suzii on Jul 27, 2008 20:11:31 GMT
hehe!! Yes got him already but buying stuff tomorrow
|
|
|
Post by brigadier on Jul 27, 2008 20:45:12 GMT
Suzii- I havent got time to do this justice right now but will respond later- your feelings are however correct- dont beat yourself up. Most horses achieve outline by default and are not ridden correctly to achieve them- but any damage done can be helped so dont worry ! brig
|
|
|
Post by brigadier on Jul 29, 2008 22:15:01 GMT
Hi Suzii- fell asleep early this evening so wide awake now so can answer your question. This is a bit like the chicken and the egg situation- which comes first? Without a doubt the free forward movement- google the scales of training and it will descride the ideal process. the idea being that the horse must be supple and loose and moving forwards. however there is an arguement where its ok to spend time achieving that but then we lose its effect because the horse doesnt carry its head properly so all the movement is lost- goes out of the front door so to speak.
So heres the problem- people want their horses to look correct so they force the outline before the horse is balanced enough to carry it properly, it then tries to correct its balance by bits of crookedness, tightness etc etc and then youve problems. I personally never work a horse onto the bit by fiddling with its mouth, i know people who do but it doesnt add up to me. horses can still move forwards if the rein is wide and low so if i want to 'show a horse the way to the ground' I use this technique whilst encouraging it to come through from behind. But this must only be done when the horse is loose, supple and swinging through from its hocks through its back with rhythm and fluidity. I watched a masterclass by Anya Berren (fearsome french lady) recently and all the riders were told to lengthen their reins and get off the horses mouths as all were showing tension because of being forced into outlines. It looked so funny all these lovely (well schooled) horses going round with their noses poking!
Be brave and let yourself and your horse relax a bit, ignore the snooty comments you are bound to get and simply ride forward and freely for a couple of weeks then ask for an outline and see how that works!
|
|
suzii
Novice Willy Washer
Officially In Love With A Young Bay Man :D
Posts: 882
|
Post by suzii on Jul 30, 2008 12:33:03 GMT
Ok. I am trying to get him more supple as he is very one sided! So will concentrate on that and relaxing!
The annoying thing is my instucter is always telling me to get him round and when I question she says that it's good because his back muscles are being worked etc.
Also, how do you ask for an outline with out "squeezing" or "playing" (as far as i can say fiddling and pulling!) at the horses mouth?
Does it just come naturally? When I walk my horse on after halting he usually does it automatically ;D but trot he sticks his head right up and really pokes his nose.
|
|
ceej
Administrator
im back.... :)
Posts: 5,363
|
Post by ceej on Jul 30, 2008 12:42:35 GMT
I think the horse at walk is one of the hardest to get working properly....
Harry automatically achieves a good outline when I am working him at trot and when I begin to collect him...I dont fiddle with his mouth at all. He started by doing it for a few strides, coming up under and his head coming in.... and boy you know when its there - he is now doing it more and more esily. Can we do it in walk...nope. Not yet! canter...hell no. but its starting ;D I think it is easy to get too hung up on it too...
When Harry arrived he was on the forehand and rushed right off at any pace because he was not balanced (and is still like thhis at the beginning of a session) I wasnt thinking, harry must be on the bit, I was thinking, balance yourself, slow down, calm, sitting trot, sit up nice and tall, propulsion with legs but relaxed and slowing seat....and he went lovely and it just happened.
does anyone else find trot easiest, canter second, walk hardest?
|
|
suzii
Novice Willy Washer
Officially In Love With A Young Bay Man :D
Posts: 882
|
Post by suzii on Jul 30, 2008 12:46:01 GMT
today I'm going to ride him and not care if he's round or not. I'm gonna do the excersise my instucter suggested for suppleness (doing half ten meter cirlces onto the center line and then another one to the other side of the school then repeat all the way down the school!) and see what happens.
|
|
suzii
Novice Willy Washer
Officially In Love With A Young Bay Man :D
Posts: 882
|
Post by suzii on Jul 30, 2008 13:15:52 GMT
|
|
|
Post by brigadier on Jul 30, 2008 14:26:48 GMT
Hi Suzii- thats the one!
Try this at halt first- sit lightly and tall in the saddle, widen and lower your hands placing a consistent feel(even on both sides) on the horses mouth, the instant (micro-second) he relaxes his jaw and dips his nose, give him the lightest contact and praise him, as soon as he raises his head again repeat. This way you are teaching the horse to relax and give you the contact- no fiddling required. Once youve mastered it then try it at walk ensuring you keep the horse moving forward- you are allowed to lean forwards yourself to get the hands low enough but then gradually you can sit up straight and just the slightest widening of the hands tells the horse to dip his head. then you can try it at trot and canter. the whole process may take several weeks with a spoiled horse or a baby, yours may know this already and hey presto. try it and let me know how it goes!
Ceej- I find canter is the hardest, walk I find easy as long as the horse keeps walking forwards- it defeats the object if you have to keep kicking it! ( re your other leg on post) Trot for me is easiest because of the forward momentum and the trick with trot is to get off their back jockey style (raise stirrups) so that the horse can really use their back and hocks and ask as per the above, then once the horse realises its lovely to work that way you start sitting up a bit more- this is also great for warming up! Canter is tricky and it depends on how well balanced the horse is- most horses find it really difficult (and riders) as asking them to come round always makes them go slower and loose the rhythm. in all I find canter the most tricky one as you need to be asking at the correct stage of training- too soon and you ruin the canter!
|
|
suzii
Novice Willy Washer
Officially In Love With A Young Bay Man :D
Posts: 882
|
Post by suzii on Jul 30, 2008 18:09:15 GMT
The whole "long and low" thing is impossible! I give mine the rein and he is soo busy looking at everything else he doesn't notice! He's good after a while though (only in walk!) but he finds trot the hardest.
He can really stick his head up sometimes too, and he looks and feels huge when he does! He even has a standing martingale (i hate them, getting rid of it) and it doesn't do anything!
I suppose he is just young and having a good look round, but will try your suggestion Brig - you have far too many tricks up your sleeve (but your my saviour for it!!!) !!!!
|
|