Murphy has dark brown / red urine.....

[dannyboy]

to end of flow. I think he's dipping again, he's also more lethargic, even though I've been trying a more oat based feed and recently a high performance feed mixed with his Spillars veteran conditioning mix.

I had been exercising him over the last few weeks every other day with N & Casper for approx 20mins at walk and tried a few trots, only getting 2/3 strides.

I have him out at the field again for a week to see if its possibly just his feed change that has triggered this dark urine but may need to take a test to the vet if it doesn't improve.

Could it be his food or maybe his kidneys etc?

[haffyfan]

Could be the hot weather making him lethargic? Mine have not been overly impressed when ridden this last week with the heat.

Regarding the urine, maybe a chat to the vet? I think it should be pale/colourless but sometimes it looks dark in a puddle in the field.

Just a stab in the dark - it's nothing to with hydration/the concentration of the urine is it? Does he drink plenty?

[dannyboy]

Haffy, we haven't really had hot weather (I wish ;D) over this direction so I don't think this is could have made an impact.

I first noticed the urine when I was going into the stable in the morning. There was excessive pee and in places it looked a dark brown / red colour which I thought was blood. I literally was running out of the stable door and I had to scoop it up to get rid of it. Then I noticed him pee'ing in the field when we first turned him out on Sunday past and it was a normal yellow, then went dark brown / red. He didn't look strained but we did notice that over the last few days he had been taking more water.

Our hay situation over here is pretty bleak and the last couple of bales that we got seemed a bit dusty (I think I'm looking for problems here .

[dannyboy]

Murphy still out in the field. I'm up steady up to get a urine sample (plastic cup on stick - any other suggests welcome) but I think he's taken stage fright ;D

[brigadier]

Dark urine is a sign of protein overload. hign performance/oat feeds do not mix with horses that are doing little work. I know you are trying to get condition on but it has to be roughage based otherwise you will damage his liver and kidneys as he tries to expel all the concentrates going in.

[dannyboy]

Thanks Brig thats good to know.

I had been trying to exercise him for the past few weeks and when he was lacking oomph, it was suggested to me to give the high performance feed a wee try.
I only fed the high performance feed for a couple of days, over a week ago and in very small quantities.
I've not been feeding him anything but the veteran mix and chaff just incase it was related.

Please could you suggest something I could try?

[racaille]

If his pee is normally lighter then you do need to be concerned. Don't want to be alarmist but dark pee can be a sign of azoturia (tying up) or a painful bladder infection. I think you need to talk to your vet immediately. In any case I would stop all hard feed and keep him on hay only.

But to put weight on a horse, assuming its teeth are fine, forage is the best - the only - way.

[fleabitten]

i remember mum trying to get a urine sample from connie, she put a sandcastle bucket on a stick and somehow managed to get it filled but then slipped in the muck and spilled the whole thing everywhere! lol!

[brigadier]

DB I would feed as much good quality meadow hay as you can get in him. Meadow as opposed to seed hay as it has less protein. If his teeth are fine then he should keep condition on but old horses do start to look a bit wasted. As for oomph- as long as he is not labouring then let him be steady. You can also get cool cubes now that are forage based and suitable for horses at rest/little work and sugar beet that is suitable for laminitics. I have my horses on cool cubes and SB with a chaff blend all the time, whether in hard work or not- I just alter the quantities depending on amount of work done or condition needed. I dont feed supplements except for sunflower oil and seaweed in winter.
I always believe in keeping it simple DB, its more important to keep your worm and teeth regime up to date as those two factors alone interfere with digestion more so than any lack of fancy food.

[zara]

Hi DB, I think you a right to be concerned. Dark urine can be due to a number of things including those mentioned above; blood in his urine (haematuria) is a different ball game. My TB mare did this when she was 7, a course of antibiotics and she was fine but in an older horse it could other problems. I think you need to discuss this with you vet; if you can get a urine sample for your vet to see / test for blood, white cells, protein etc. Hope its nothing serious and he's soon fit and well again xx

[scattymare]

Oh DB sorry to hear he's not right again. Agree with the others, a sample and vet would be wise as there area a number of things it could be - ranging from not serious to bad news.
Again agree with above re forage and fibre diet. Remember P when I got him? I did the same as you and was trying to feed him up on competition mixes (which he was on when I got him) - it did nothing for his weight. I switched him onto Allen & Page weight gain & Dengie Alfa A (though the Hi Fi range would be a good option if he is already getting too much protein). You could always use good old fashioned sugar beet for extra fibre and to provide extra fluid.
Plus lots of hay - as much as he will eat. Split your feeds into as many as possible throughout the day - ideally 3 or 4 (not always practical with work)
Fibre fibre fibre really is the key for weight gain healthily - particularly in oldies who are having a quiet life.
Hope he picks up again soon x

[fimacg]

Not much to add, My lot seem to have a set routine about peeing so see if he does like to pee in any particular place, Brave has a favourite pee spot, or Time (dexter has to pee before he eats - Yuck) and catch him them.

You could always keep in on the concrete for a few hours as most horses dont like the splashback and then lead him to a patch of grass for a pee with bucket on stick at the ready.

Brave is almost house trained he will hold it until led out of his stable will pee on the grass for a reward of a few mouthfuls of grass before putting him back again

[dannyboy]

unfortunately I can't get any good hay at the moment. My usual supplier won't have any for a couple of weeks. We got 10 bales tonight but its not great / its the same story everywhere over here.

On a more positive note, there was no dark urine on the stable floor this morning but I haven't yet been able to get a urine sample.

[racaille]

It's a problem just now, with the hay, I know. Still any edible hay is better than none so well done you for finding it - keep searching for more as he needs as much as he can eat. Great about the pee being normal - keep an eye on it and yes, I think you are right to still want it tested. It does sound as though something is/was going on.

DB, it's difficult to know what you mean by lethargic. Of course a horse can be lethargic when it is ill, but sometimes horses get bored or lazy and just don't get very motivated. For example, if I take Paco out on an 'everyday' hack that he knows very well he can be a real plod and just try to slouch round - but take him out with other horses somewhere new and he can be a bomb! So if Murphy is a bit ploddy in hand he may well be thinking - what? this again??? And many horses are reluctant to trot in hand (which is why it is part of a TREC test), it is something that some horses have to be taught.

So if he is a bit 'lazy', he may just be unmotivated. Do not let anyone take you down the 'pep him up with hard feed' route, it is truly dangerous.

To put it another way, Jana, the teenager's competition pony has been eventing or showjumping most Sundays and she has eaten nothing but hay this year and has been going like a train!

A last thought: if you can't get hay, can you get bagged haylage? I bet you a penny to a pound that Murphy isn't getting the forage bulk he needs. If you can solve this (and I do understand you are trying like crazy) I think he will perk up. Good luck hun.

[brigadier]

Also if you can find a low sugar/protein chaff mix, cant think of a name/brand offhand but your supplier will point you in the right direction (I use an own make one that is just local) then give him an extra bucket full last thing at night and lunchtime, its important to keep his gut working so he can metabolise his food and he can nibble this when there is a break between hay ration. my bags cost about £7 and would last longer than if feeding a extra hay ration.

[dannyboy]

Thanks so much for your advice. The hay I have isn't brilliant but I have been ringing around and hopefully I'll get sorted soon.
Brig, I'm feeding Murphy a low sugar chaff mixed in with his conditioning mix 3 times per day - should I just feed him the chaff or continue with the mix?
In relation to the pee sample - I nearly fell tonight in a sprint to get a bucket to obtain the wet stuff - only to miss out once again , it looked normal which is brilliant so hopefully nothing serious.

I think I was a little niave to think that hard feed would get Murphy on track again. If I'm truely honest, I think Murphy is unable to physically do any more and I don't want to believe it. I've tried long-reining, walking for 10, then 15, up to 30mins but he hasn't shown any signs of improvement in the last 6-8 weeks. I don't think its a lazy thing, more like he's just unable to perform.

I'm caught in a very difficult dilemma. I love Murphy to bits but I am unable to buy another horse as I don't have the room and I can't see a way out - maybe I'm just pushing him to be something he can never be

[brigadier]

DB- it really depends on what else he is getting- he should be getting around 30lbs of food a day, probably at about 80-20% forage to hard feed, but the hard feed needs to be low protein. If he is not getting the hay (forage) then feed chaff or another substitute. He needs the fibre to make his gut work and concentrate ie hard feed cannot make this up. He should also be fed little and often, not always possible when you work I know hence the use of chaff to bulk the hard feed out so they chew it slowly as though they were eating grass continously. the idea is to emulate a horses natural grazing habit. Im sensing some confusion in your thread but if you really concentrate on grass or hay or a viable substitute fed in small but continous amounts you wont go far wrong. His droppings will also give you an indication of whether you are feeding enough fibre, if they are small round balls scattered about then you aren,t, they should be fairly large and want to stick together, a bit like doughnuts pressed together.

[dannyboy]

Brig, Murphy's poo is large and sticky, so hopefully this means he is getting enough fibre. Although the hay I have is of poor quality, he is getting it in large amounts throughout the day. I have been feeding him 3 hard feed's per day with chaff at approx 8lbs in total and although I don't weight his hay, its practically adlib (although at times he has been picky and wasteful). I have however got better hay over the weekend and he's been munching it up well.

I have him out at grass tonight, where he usually enjoys but as I have only limited grazing, it will be short lived.

Brig, you were right to detect confusion in my message. I'm pulling my hair out as I feel very inadequate in taking care of Murphy. I really do try my best but I'm so disappointed that it just isn't good enough.

[brigadier]

That sounds a good routine DB, and dont worry about him being picky and leaving some, Id be more worried if he hoovered all that up and there was nothing left. Older horses can be tricky especially if you dont know what has happened before, by that I mean he could have old worm damage etc etc. Just keep it consistent and ensure you are worming and doing teeth etc and it should be ok. Its never straightforward with them, especially as they get on a bit!

[dannyboy]

Thanks Brig, I appreciate your advice.

[scattymare]

DB Don't feel alone. We're all here to help. Pics are always useful as what you see and what someone else see's may be different