Bitting help!

[rainbow]

I am at a bit of a stump with rosies bitting.

currently she is in a dutch gag lozange on the second ring as just proves that the snaffle just dont work tonight (see moshs thread in horse chat)
She goes well in this for hacking and will listen and pull up pretty much straight away.

but she doesnt seem comfortable in it as head is always in the air which i supose anyways is the job of the bit.

Have tried a mullen mouth pelham and had no breaks in it at all so thats out the question. but if i didnt need brakes she did go well in it to the fact that her head was always pretty much down nicely.

Have tried a jointed snaffle so dont like that at all, head in air not brakes.

Got a bit thats got a port but the port bit is attached to like a frnech link would be if u get me. shes ok in this but wouldnt be enough for xc or jumping. as had no control.

So where do i go from here? she doesnt like french links or jointed things. Im jst stumped nothing seems to be working for her and i would try a bitless but there not really legal for anything so wopuld need to be bitted.

pleasse help a desperate me and aunty Mosh!

cookies and tea

[solomon]

I would use the dutch gag with a running martingale,def not on the snaffle ring. If she is anything like Pete any less than that and you won't be able to stop!

[rainbow]

i do have that currently with a running martingale but she still sticks it in the air! yeah she just tanks of. YO told us of and made us put it to snaffle as it looked so harsh! pfft

[fleabitten]

hmmm. what about a waterford snaffle? kimblewick (like a pelham, its got a curb chain) perhaps? have you got the running martingale adjusted correctly? i cant remember how you measure the correct length though.

does she cross her jaw or open her mouth? if so perhaps trying a different noseband might help too.

[rainbow]

she does move her lip a lot but thats just her she doesnt open her mouth as such just the lip. i rode her the other day without her noseband as it was while we were have a lunge lesson and it made me realise actually how much a noseband works, i had nothing when with her caverson she had the breaks. maybe look into the nosebands...thanks flea

[rainbow]

waterford is more for horses who lean though aint it? rather than breaks> hmm

kimblewicks might be ok but if there milder than a pelham and i had now breaks in that then im not sure it will work.

[fleabitten]

It might be worth a try if you can get hold of ones the right size for free. waterford are for that yes, but when they cant lean they have better brakes then because they are backing off it - thats my logic anyway lol. you might be right about the kimblewick though.

you could try a drop as people seem to have good results with it.

but one tip - do one thing at a time so you can judge what exactly is working and what isnt. i.e. dont try a different noseband and bit at the same time.

[rainbow]

yeah i have a drop her already that im trying to sell lol so might try that on her and see. can see if the YO has a waterford to try she does have a rather large box of bits

[fleabitten]

ah your YO comes in handy sometimes then lol!

[rainbow]

yeah she does soemtimes! when shes not being annoying but just thinking bout it she can hardly talk bout me having the gag on second ring as harsh as she has a million an one gags in her box!

[spotti]

I know I'm biased but I have a feeling that bitless bridles (certain ones atleast) are legal for SJ and XC, just not dressage yet . I think Dr Cooks are still on a 30-day money back guarantee so if it doesn't work out you could send it back and get your money back?

Depending on the size of Rosies head, I might have a spare one you could try if you don't want to buy one? (it's quite big though...especially the noseband so it might not be of any use, but it's there if you want to try it

[rainbow]

thanks spotti. its not somehting that she is ready for yet but would like to do dressage at some point so if i dont sort it out now im still goin to be in the same situation later.

but if it does come to that i will let you knw thank you x

[haffyfan]

I was also going to suggest trying her bitless too, it would highlight whether she's 'scared' of her mouth hence the head up/ tanking off etc

A cherry roller/waterford also may help as she won't be able to grab hold of it to tank off and they are nice and pliable (sp) I ahve found in my experience most horses will go well in a waterford despite their bad press as being severe...any bit/nosepiece is only as severe as the hands holding it.

But to be perfectly honest I think the issue is more likely her flatwork/schooling...I would be inclined to think she needs to go right back to basic's and start over with her education.
She's clearly a cracking jumper but I would guess she's spent most of her life whizzing over jumps and been throughly fizzed up and sorry don't mean it in a horrible way but well spoilt.

If she was mine I'd be inclined to go bitless, but thats just me, but as it's not an option for you it would be quiet schooling/hacking (walk and trot only initially and no jumping whatsoever for some time!) in a snaffle and drop noseband until she 'accepts' her mouth and settles down and realises racing around is pointless and actually not that fun.

Once she was going nicely in a walk and trot I'd introduce canter and then poles/small jumps but i would invisigae this to be weeks/months down the line.

[zara]

I agree with Haffy - flatwork, flatwork, flatwork! With regards bits i love the Myler range - come with all types of cheeks. Zx

[fimacg]

I think I am in Haffy's school of thought too, she sounds like she needs to go back to school and get the basics firmly established, it might be a bit boring but it will pay dividends in the long run.

[rainbow]

yeah just sugested a waterford to my YO and she was like no waterfords are servere!

"A waterford is very severe, i wouldnt use it with a drop noseband either.
2 ideas i have are a d ring ported snaffle with hooks and a lozenge wilkie snaffle with a grackle noseband."

that is what she said.

so many things are been thrown at me knw i dont knw where to turn. i knw she needs lot of schooling but she has come on a bit in the little that we have done. but perhaps sort the bit out and the rest will fall into place?
she also does not liesten to me leg whatso ever, she is so stubburn at gates and it would of really helped and made it easier to understand what i was tryign to ask her to do if she just simpley listened! i was only asking her bum to move! bah!

[rainbow]

we have gone back to basis with the jumping with canter poles and se is comeing on really well with these. ive started to lunge her once a week trying to do it twice, in a bungie and the first time i did it last week got some good results out of it.

Yeah perhaps leave jumping out of the equation for a bit and see how we get on with the schooling. YO has offered to get on her and help me out too.

[fleabitten]

I think probably getting her listening is the first thing to sort out because there is no point in trying to school her if you have no control whatsoever.

At the min you have a gag bit which you say works for hacking so thats a good starting point. When i had princess i had control in walk and trot but not for cantering and jumping really. but seeing as we had the control in walk and trot we could maybe have worked on the cantering and jumping, you know? then again, you say rosie doesnt seem comfortable with it - alternatively instead of the waterford you could try a straight bar mouthpiece in the gag as it could be the jointed action as you say.

your Yo sounds like my old RI actually - oh thats too severe! its hard not to feel intimidated by them but i think the waterford might be worth a try. if you cant get the waterford off her, try your drop noseband first and look up a bit bank to borrow a waterford snaffle in the meantime.

I think the others are right that its a schooling problem too and you need to get it now before she gets brakeless! Yes its gonna be boring and i bet your heart sank (esp Moshs) at the thought of no jumping but it will be so worth it in the end and you could perhaps have a jumping lesson at a RS or something if you were getting desperate for some jumping action! ;D

I would mainly do the flatwork and some poles but dont concentrate on the poles, hacking out, and lungeing. Just have them scattered about the arena or lying out as trotting poles and continue with your normal schooling and just randomly add them in to what you are doing so they are no big deal.

I think you have said before about her not listening to your legs - this is something that will help her too! Start on the ground with your long line (not a lead rope) and teach her to move away from pressure on her side. I dont know enough to explain how you would go about doing this. If she really doesnt listen at all to sideways etc then there is no point trying to do it ridden until you can do it on the ground well. You can also practice this when you tie her up to groom etc.

i think your Yos bitting suggestions sound quite complicated and probably better to keep it quite simple.

I think you should look for a pure dressage/flatwork instructor to help you at the minute as they may be able to help with the technical stuff and teaching her to move off your leg etc and soften, (rather than an all round instructor or jumping instructor.) You could try contacting british dressage or there is a british dressage forum but im not sure if you have to be a member of british dressage or not. or you could try looking up classical dressage instructors. im not sure where else to look but word of mouth is always best so maybe try some of the forums?

[rainbow]

yeah think your right flea with everything.

The gag does work an i feel confortable with it (although i knw that is possibly not the case with rosie)
yeah she doesnt like the jointed mouthpieces and does seem to be bit better with a lozange but also straightbars and ports as that woud possibly be what she had to drive. (although dont knw what she was like to drive)

I do think the waterford is worth a try, sam my old loan pony was 4 and had one cause he leaned alot! i have heard lots of cases where a number of different horses have gone well in them. So if YO wont give it me will get one. Think i will try the drop first then move on to other bits.

I am actually not overly bothered bout jumping the last time i jumped rosie was the 16th of june! i do enjoy it but if it comes down to schooling vs that id rather school. And jumping with an instructer will be a lot better so we knw where we go wrong.

never did actually think bout trying to teach her from the ground, its like when i tell her to go backwards she never goes in a straightline she always has to turn. so its something we can work on too.

i was startin to have lessons with Tracey Dillon, and YO has offered to take me up there is the girl i go with cant go.
startin from next week i am goin to really buck up my ideas and get on with her, cause i really want her to do well and become an allround nice controlled pony

just want to say thanks for all your input

[fleabitten]

oh yes i forgot about tracey, she looked good. i guess it will be mosh then that will be a bit disappointed about the jumping then. mosh, you are in this too ;D

sounds like you have a plan and are feeling more positive, its very easy to get bogged down with suggestions and opinions coming at you from all angles.

good luck

[maximum]

how long are you actually giving her with the new bits and what are you doing with her when you try them out? You need to let her get used to it for at least a week and no it won't be perfect the first few times - just because you don't have brakes the minute you put it on does not mean that she won't come to it. try to lunge her in the bits then long rein before getting on - brakes come from the seat and body weight and a horse being schooled to listen to those - not from the hand and a more severe bit. The waterford is not any more severe than a dutch gag on the second ring if you need to haul at it to stop her and less severe than a lot of single jointed snaffles.

most of the time the problem that comes out of the mouth is due to the horse not being balanced, supple and obedient and whacking her in different bits won't help that - she will be too busy fighting that to really concentrate on her work.

You seem determined to do the best for this pony no matter what and seem happy to take your time so I am sure it will come right but I think she quite possibly was never correctly or fully given the work she needed when she was first backed and it only now that it is coming out so I would be doing a ton of long reining lunging and quiet steady schooling work.

I have one of these in various sizes and have found almost every horse likes it and goes well and the cheeks help the steering in young/green horses. Its a brilliant bit and I have the loose ring version for those who do not need the steering.

[rainbow]

i am giving her time to accept it and hacking jumping and schooling in thm. fair enough i didnt give the pelham i had a lot of chance cause when we had that hack and she just woulndt stop and even though it was in walk it really scared me so i didnt go back to it.

will try the waterford it seems to be the one to try.

i agree i dont thnk she was properly schooled at any point in her life. before the dealer had her they said she had done nothing but drive and then when they got her they did nothing but jump so i have alot to do to bring her on. its almost like haveing a youngster that knows the basics but nothing else.

she really isnt balanced, supple or obedient tbf, i have tried to long rein her but again she ran of with me, when i tried her in a jointed full check, up the track and i stopped. so will try again in the school once i get this waterford YO is goin to love me lol but who cares.

[rainbow]

arrrgghhhh! its these kinda comments that get me annoyed!

"flat work is the key...dont worry i can sort a plan.
I had a horse many moons ago that was exceedingly strong, see video of me sj when i was young, he was ridden in only a pelham, it was flat work that helped him the most, never had to resort to a waterford, and he was VERY strong!"

god women! thats my YO how is a pelham any less servere than a waterford.

[maximum]

I am a huge pelham fan and correctly fitted - and that includes the correct angle of the curb chain. Severity is down to how the bit is used and yes Waterfords can be severe as can almost all bits but a pelham will help with poll pressure in a horse that raises it head but it really needs to be used with 2 reins not roundings.

The YO is right about the flat work though! Oh and I meant to put link to a nice wee bit - my post makes more sense that way! I can't do link on phone so if you go to shires and look in bits under snaffles page 4 full cheek snaffle with copper peanut.

[rainbow]

yeah thats where i went wrong with it. i havnt learned how to use 2 reins so had roundings on. Might give it another go but i think i am goin to try a drop and a bigger gag for the mo then look at other possibles. will keep that bit in mind

shes currently got this bit that im lungin in

www.shiresequestrian.co.uk/shop/product.php?productid=743&cat=572&page=10