Exploring bitless

[racaille]

I'm sorry, I think we've had this convo already but I just can't find it and - big admission here - I really didn't pay too much attention as I kinda thought bitless bridles were for the 'horsies as pets' brigade rather than 'riders'.

Sorry Haffy and co, I really am - I was very prejudiced and higorant. I'm starting to think there might be something to going bitless after all......

It's true that tack hasn't changed a great since the middle ages! I started thinking about bits after the dentist pointed out Paco's wolf tooth and we had the discussion about whether to remove it (apparently it's not worth it unless your horse is a competition horse! ) But then it seemed to me more reasonable to explore ways to avoid the pain of a bit jolting against the tooth than removing the poor tooth itself.

Paco is a gent and doesn't complain much but I'm sure I jolt him in the gob from time to time - I'm not the world's greatest rider. I've been reading up about Dr Cook's bitless bridles and all the arguments make sense.

So ..... can I change? Or is it too late? Paco has been ridden for one day in a western hackamore and apparently was brilliant (but I think they can be too severe). What about brakes? Will I be able to stop Paco when he does one of his bolts up the field? Can you still achieve the holy grail of 'outline'? Can you jump in them? Is the steering 'normal' - ie, not yanking on one rein (our beginners start with one 'open rein' but go on to learn how to use both hands to steer)?

Is a Dr Cook's suitable for a naughty boy who can buck sometimes?

I'm on the brink - hope you can convince me, I'd really like to not give Paco toothache any more.

[joandlad]

You can definitely teach an old dog new tricks. ;D I changed from riding my old horse, Lads in a bitted bridle to a Dually when he was 32 yrs old. He was severly lacking in the teeth department and I figured that removing the bit could only help. We did lots and lots of ground work in the dually first so he could learn how to release the pressure. I couldn't ride him in the school to try it out as he hated the school (when I rode in their 2 years previously he threw me off and I broke a rib). So I had to try it out up and down the driveway. I was amazed at how responsive he was, better than he had ever been in his bridle, I think because I actually got to teach him how it worked and he ended up much softer. Yes, he could go in a correct outline and we could jump. We also had good enough brakes to hold him in canter on the spot when he was having a paddy. Our competition days were behind us so I stuck with the dually. If I was still competing (showjumping) I would have invested in a Dr Cooks. He was a serial bucker but the bucking got much, much less in the dually. I think he sometimes bucked in protest of me pulling on his mouth.

[haffyfan]

Racaille it's never too late to try!
When we lived up north I regulary rode my friends ex racer (who was well into his mid teens) in a hackamore whereas she rode him in a mylor snaffle. She was more than happy to let me ride him this way and to my knowledge he had never worn one before as he was a chaser until he was 10/11 and she bought him at about 14 from the final owner/trainer. He went beautifully in it from day one and I actually thought he went happier in it but maybe I was biased. She didn't really use it as one day early on he bolted with her which is totally out of character (why is not really known) but she thinks she could have stopped him in the mylor so was understandly dubious after that.
You can do anything bitless that you can with a bit but a few socities are still living in the dark ages (like BD) but as you do endurance/trec it's fine...infact I'm actually suprised you aren't already bitless or is it not so common in France?

Steering is fine, not sure why people make a big fuss about it really myself , some neck rein, some don't!

Choice of bridle is very much a personal thing and what your horse likes best and works for both of you...for mine so far it's a blairs pattern (usually just called english) hackamore


This is a great website and I think this article and it's links actually cover an awful lot of what you asking. As ever they are biased to a particular brand they endorse but that's life i guess
www.naturalhorseworld.com/BitlessBridles.htm

Dr Cooks site
www.bitlessbridle.co.uk/

His book metal in the mouth is very interesting reading and I would urge all riders to read it at some point! Again the site is a little biased and although it wasn't an official DR cooks I tried an Aussie cross under and Murph didn't like it...couldn't try Harry as his head was too big!

This is a website dedicated to bitless but again biased towards Dr Cook
www.bitlessequitation.co.uk/bitless-equitation-links.htm

This is a natural horse website I found that has a review of the Dr cooks and some other thought provoking articles (not always in a good way as they actually appear to advocate Strausser for one).
www.successful-natural-horsecare.com/bitless-bridles.html

This the LG, which I bought last year before Murph was ill but have never actually tried on him since - thats another of my plans for this year
www.lgbridle.com/

[haffyfan]

Nearly forgot this is the Micklem which may interest you as it can be be used as a bitless or with a bit
www.williammicklem.com/multibridle.html

[duckles]

Hi Racaille, I read a lot of stuff on bitless and wanted to give it a go. I have riden both horses in head collers and Cori in a bitless and I honestly have to say it made no difference to either. I bought the Micklem bridle for this purpose - it has the beauty of a bitless or bited drop noseband option. Cori still head shook with the bitless and got very stong (I think a personalty thing!!). He does seem to be going a lot better in the drop (with bit) but I don't know whether that's the bridle or my new saddle (treeless - not actually bought for him but I use it anyway).
I know the English Hackamore is a lot more gentle than the other (is it German) version. The Micklem has nice leather and (my favourite bit) has lovely shaping around the ears.
With JB, I had no trouble with brakes or steering while riding in a head collar but as it seemed to give no benefit either, I thought that the bit wasn't his problem. (He didn't get strong and I jumped and everything in it and he is a really athletic horse so I was very surprised that he never got strong) I tried the Micklem on him and he hated it!! But I don't use any nose band- drop or otherwise on him. I may try him on bitless again when the other issues are sorted out.
IMO- a horse with a normal mouth/jaw/teeth who is ridden properly should not have a problem with a bit but it does no harm to go bitless especially as it will improve the rider's leg and seat aids. However, all bitless bridles put pressure somewhere and some horses don't like those other areas being pressured.
With other horses, they immediately respond better to bitless (so I have heard) so I think it is always worth trying it out. SOme horses hate bits whether for physical or psycological reasons.
A few riding schools here teach beginers with out a bit (usually head collars) and I think that is a brilliant idea.
Racaille, why don't you try riding in head collar a few times and see do you notice any difference? You could try after a lesson when he would be a little less fresh.
My philosophy is to research and try anything that will help your horse or riding but I don't think bitless in itself is better than bitted- I think it depends on horse and rider and its a good idea to try all options.

[fleabitten]

duckles, i saw the website for that riding school - cant for the life of me remember what its called but its down south somewhere and they ride barefoot and get an EP from castlewellan and all. I posted a link for it months ago. I agree with this ''My philosophy is to research and try anything that will help your horse or riding but I don't think bitless in itself is better than bitted- I think it depends on horse and rider and its a good idea to try all options. ''. I also think that 'natural horsemanship' stuff has only been round for a few years whereas traditional saddles and bridles have been in use for hundreds of years. Still, I do think its worth a try and if it doesnt work then it doesnt matter - mix and match traditional and natural is my new philosophy!

[boldambition]

[sorry edited to say that this post is actually by haffyfan - this is a tester account I set up when the forum first opened to get a non admin persective of things and make sure things like members only sections and other bits and bobs do work as they should etc. ]

Actually Flea, and I'm not being in any way argumentative, 'Natural' horsemanship as you called it has actually been around a heck of a lot longer than the traditional saddles/bridles you speak off have. Basically it is just going back to it's roots as people start to think that the path of evolution it has taken (or rather been taken down) is not all it first cracked up to be.

The earliest saddles were just very simple pads held on by I guess an early form of surcingle right back in about 800 BC, which over time evolved to be padded affairs still held by a sircingle and where a lot of todays treeless saddles take their idea from. It was about 200 BC before early forms of treed saddle were first recorded. And of course almost as long as people having been riding horses they have felt the need to control them via rope round the head/neck long before bits were thought off.


Below is taken from good old Wiki so it's validity is of course questionable

It was not until about 700-800 BCE that there is verifiable evidence that the first predecessor to the modern saddle was in use, thought to have been developed by the Assyrians, and consisting of a simple cloth fastened onto the horse with a surcingle. The Scythians also developed a saddle which included padding and decorative embellishments. Though they had neither a solid tree nor stirrups, these early treeless saddles and pads provided protection and comfort to the rider, with a slight increase in security.

The first hackamore was probably a piece of rope placed around the nose or head of a horse not long after domestication, perhaps as early as 4,000 B.C.[4] Early devices for controlling the horse may have been adapted from equipment used to control camels.[5] Over time, more sophisticated means of using nose pressure were developed. The Persians beginning with the reign of Darius, circa 500 BC, were one of the first cultures known to have used a thick-plaited noseband to help the horse look and move in the same direction.[5] This device, called a hakma, also added a third rein at the nose, and was an innovation that allowed a rider to achieve collection by helping the horse flex at the poll joint.[5] The third rein later moved from the top of the noseband to under the chin,[6] where it is still part of the modern 'mecate rein used on the bosal-style hackamore. The techniques of horse-training refined by the Persians later influenced the works on horsemanship written by the Greek military commander Xenophon.[7] This heavy noseband itself came to be known by many names, retaining the name hakma in Persio-Arabic tongues, but becoming the cavesson in French, and the bosal in Spanish.[5]

[duckles]

Flea - that place you are referring to has closed!! But there is a smaller yard run by the same people and I presume they are still bitless. I was really referring to another school, which is quite traditional except they don't let beginers use bits.
BTW the school that closed is now a livery yard and is probably one of the most beautiful places in the world. I have been on the x country course loads of times as its quite near me, its beside the sea, has amazing views and fantastic hacking.

[ceej]

I have always thought the same as you racaille - then I saw a showjumper using a bitless the other day - the horse after her was shaking his head and the bitless looked much better...I have just read loads ont he Dr Cooks and yes it does make sense, although I agree with duckles that what works for one doesnt always work for anbother...

I woudl love to try the bitless, and there is a 30 day trial so I am very tempted - but I have the issue with harry becoming a little strong (and opening his mouth (hence I have ordered a drop noseband) but I wonder whether bitless would help this or let him run away with me more? I think we tend to rely too much on bits.

Can you do dressage in bitless though? Does it not lack subtlety of a correctly used bit?

[racaille]

That's not much a worry for me Ceej - I'm not at double bridle dressage level!

TBH I'd never have bothered thinking about it all if it hadn't been for Paco's extra tooth and I can see how agonising it must be for him as there isn't the normal amount of room in his mouth for the bit, even though he has a nice french link, which he does go better in than the old jointed snaffle.

Duckles, I'm not sure I'd have the confidence to ride Paco in just a halter with no control whatsoever! If he took off I'd be stuffed! But I do agree that not everything works for all horses and it is very much a case of suck it and see. So I'm going to take advantage of the 30-day trial and order a Dr Cook's and see if it makes a difference. I'll measure Paco up tomorrow.

Haffy, strangely, I rarely see a bitless bridle here, other than a western hackamore from time to time. Quite the reverse actually, there are a lot of poor horses running around with half a scrapyard in their gobs and curbs and chains everywhere. In fact, the Camargue guys ride their horses in a noseband made out of what I can only describe as bicycle chain!

[racaille]

PS, yes, Paco also opens his mouth but I think that's probably because of his tooth.

Haffy, I do agree with you about tack. I don't think that just because something has been around a while it is necessarily the best solution and I'm learning to keep an open mind. Technology is changing fast but the equestrian industry is slow to take advantage and some of this is snobbery, I'm sure (yes, I've been guilty too ).

[spotti]

Dr Cook! Dr Cook! Dr Cook!!!! I cannot tell you just how wonderful that man is!! And with a 30-day money back guarantee, what have you got to lose?

Depending on how big Paco is, you could always borrow my spare if you didn't want to splash out on your own?? (that goes for anyone else too .

***I tried it on Faith the other day and when adjusted it seems to fit her fine (although it is 'full' so has to be on quite high up holes) except the noseband is heeeeuge but seems to fasten with a bit of random leather ( ) so I sohuld think that with a smaller bit of leather that it could be made to fit a smaller head The spare is only a copy of the real thing but I'm more than happy to lend it out if anyone fancies a go with it...

[ceej]

well the more I read the more sense it makes really - there is a little part of me that looks at the bridle and thinks hmmm, it just doesnt look like you woudl have any control and then I read this, which is so obviously true its just not funny:

By giving up the use of the bit, you don't sacrifice any control - but you DO make it less likely that the horse will bolt, buck, or bite because of mouth pain. One of the great myths of horseback riding is that the bit stops the horse. The bit does NOT stop the horse. A bit can hurt a horse, frighten a horse, cut through the horse's tongue, or otherwise damage the horse. A bit can be used to signal a horse, crudely and harshly or gently and lightly, depending on the skill of the rider. But no bit ever stopped a horse. All the bit can do is help you tell the horse that you would like it to stop - and you can say that just as clearly WITHOUT a bit.



My only other concern is that it is naturally quite low on the horses nose - is this not where the sensitive cartilage is?

Also, can you use normal reins?

[ceej]

and I think this may really help Harry get off the forhand - he leans on the bit quite a lot, and as a result I have much harder hands than I used to - cor my hands used to be so light they barely touched, I just used my seat - Id love the idea I coudl get back to that....

[racaille]

I don't know what to think about the noseband being 'low, but it looks snug rather than tight.

Two thoughts for all you experts: how do you lunge with a Dr Cooks? What do you attack the clip to? And can you use a de gogue with it for lunging?

[spotti]

Racaille: - As you know, we don't really do much 'normal' horsey stuff so couldn't really comment on such matters as lungeing BUT if you clip the 2 rings that you attach your reins to then you can essentially make the bridle a headcollar so I guess you could then attach your lunge line to the newly clipped-up rings and use it like that??? Never tried it though mind you but I can't see why it wouldn't work...

As for the de gogue, I imagine so...what does it normally attach to? The bit rings? You can use a pessoa with a Dr Cook so if it attaches to the bit in a similar way then I reckon you might be ok

*modified for awful spelling, as per usual!

[brigadier]

I know nothing about Dr Cooks except my riding buddy uses them for both her horses and after riding both found no difference to any other bridle, both horses were responsive at all paces and easy to stop/turn etc. Both also carry themselves well so working in an outline is not an issue. Ive never gone down the route of bitless as Ive not had a horse with any great problem re bitting but I would if I thought it suited the horse as its all about helping them to go in the best way possible. In truth I prefer the look of a traditional bridle but this is a minor consideration!

[ceej]

ordered one - will let you know how I get on!

[spotti]

A Dr Cook? Woo! Good luck! (don't forget posing piccies!!!)

[ceej]

yup - finances only stretched (and then not really) to a beta one, not leather....

[ceej]

just to add, ahving doen lots more research (its my thing - I research and research and think of nothing else until I decide) I dont buy the whole bits are evil thread running through the dr cooks website (and its OTT nature almost put me off) I think there are things suitable for all horses, and I have just read a very interesting article about sensitive polled horses whocan react to the pressure quite badly (by rearing) so horses for courses!

I am curious to try it though!

[racaille]

I agree Ceej! As I said, I want to try one because of his nibs's extra tooth but TBH I've never had a problem getting a french link into his gob (he opens up very sweetly) so I don't think I'm exactly torturing him.
On the other hand I do hate to see horses bitted up unnecessarily - for instance, this ginger trotter (vile animal just like her owner) used to have the lot plus curb etc but on the occasions I rode her I put a simple snaffle in instead and she was absolutely fine.

I too am going for the Beta synthetic (no spare cash swilling about ) but if I like it I might try to upgrade to leather cos they are pretty in leather and like you Brig, I like a 'traditional' look. I'm dying to try it! I went for a Dr Cooks as it seems the only bitless that you can still have a contact in and I don't see how you can jump etc if you have no contact? But I have to wait a couple of weeks for the OH to bring it from the UK .....

[ceej]

mine STILL hasnt arrived hurumph

[spotti]

Really? How long ago did you order it? *scrolls back up to see the other post about ordering * It's only been a week hasn't it? I think mine arrived within abot 7-10 days, give it time

[ceej]

e-mailed them - they are awaiting a delivery - another week or so....