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Post by scattymare on May 8, 2009 15:33:47 GMT
As you all know, Patrick came to me quite underweight. Poor thing had been abandoned at his previous loan home over winter before his owner got him back in December. I now think that that may have something to do with his grass obsession! He is slowly building weight but it is slowly. Now in our field Sancy & Myric are both on restricted grazing due to Sancy's possible lami attack last year so they get turnout on poor grazing with a small amount of 'new grass' allowed each day. Obviously this is not enough for P. The other side of the field has been rested over winter so is now nicely flourishing the spring grass. I have allowed P a few hours a day on that side but am very wary of lami. Is he likely to get it if I extended his turnout on that side? He has never suffered it before, but I know that even underweight horses can get it and following Sancy last year who had never had it in 15 years naturally I an nervous. I will take some up to date pics over the weekend so you can see his current condition. These are all pics I took today. Tried to get some of him on his 'poor' angles and some where he doesn't look so bad,, Rescue case!!  Even worse!  Middle bit  Ah thats a bit better!  From behind (sorry, crook neck time)  Again looking fairly normal  What do you reckon? To me his back end doesn't seem to fit his frony (the last pictures slightly dodgy amgle but he is much bigger at the front than the back) |
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abi
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Post by abi on May 8, 2009 16:07:13 GMT
does he get hard feed?
Calm and Condition by allen and page is a good way of putting on condition, doesnt fizz them up either, plus i think its now all organic ect.
Also, Speedibeet and Fibrebeet by british horse feeds is Laminitis trust approved! x
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haffyfan
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Post by haffyfan on May 8, 2009 17:14:27 GMT
Has he had a worm count done scatty? It may be worth while getting one done and also blood tests for the ones a count can't pick up. If not that would be my starting point.
Having a lami pony too I would be wary of too much grazing but can he have some good quality hay and/or fibre feed to help condition him as Abi suggests.
My other thought is he's an old boy so it will take longer than it would conditioning a younger horse....I'm sure you have done all this but are his teeth okay and can he still eat hay/grass etc with ease....if his teeth are bothering him in any way (including general old age wear and tear) softer sloppy food may suit him better?
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Post by scattymare on May 8, 2009 20:08:14 GMT
He's currently getting a hard feed of Badminton show & condition mix, sugar beet and a veteran chaff once a day - I didn't want to overload him from what he was already on.
He had his teeth done in Feb (got the papers with him) and he manages grazing and hay fine. Doesn't drop his hard feed either.
Worm count no I've not done - he was wormed on arrival with an invermectin based wormer but that might be an idea to check out.
I know he will lose condition more as he's an old codger bless him, I just hate seeing bony bits! Actually I was watching him tonight and I don't think he's as bad as I think - it seems to be certain positions he stands in that makes him look worse than others. And tacked up he looks quite good (when you can't see his ribs!) Think I'm also a bit impatient as all my previous horses (and Sancy) have been the type to get fat just looking at the grass.
Think I'll get some more eleccy fence poles so I can section the field more to maybe allow him more grazing than the other two, but not too much to overdo it.
Pics will follow tomorrow....
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Post by fleabitten on May 9, 2009 11:03:18 GMT
Well, we did stuff Connie with lots of rich stuff but then again she didnt eat much grass so that could be the reason why she didnt get laminitis.
All the above suggestions are excellent. Starting on a worm count program is a really good idea - we started Kieran on it. I would give Patrick his own section - start small so he doesnt gorge a whole load and then once hes ate that down, extend the fence out.
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Post by racaille on May 10, 2009 6:39:21 GMT
Personally I prefer to fatten slowly on forage rather than hard feed. And I appreciate your lami concerns. I think I would be tempted to section him off from the others with some good quality hay so you can control the dosage precisely.
Mind you I have no experience of horses eating grass, other than the odd mouthful in spring!
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Post by racaille on May 10, 2009 23:49:38 GMT
Now I've seen the pix I would say he is thin. His back end is scrawny too. I stick by my forage suggestion - you don't want him fizzy on hard feed but lots of good hay would help him, I think.
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Post by spotti on May 11, 2009 7:25:02 GMT
This might sound a random question (and is in no way intended to imply anything), but does his saddle fit well? Or has he had a badly fitting saddle at some point? I only ask because looking at his back, shoulders and withers, he appears to have a perfectly "tree"-shaped shape where he lacks muscle, giving the impression that he has/has had pressure on those points...it could just be that he's getting on a bit and has lost a lot of weight with his previous loaners...  Re: condition and weight gain, I'd agree with Racaille about slowly gaining weight via good quality forage instead of overloading him with hard food  |
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Post by fleabitten on May 11, 2009 10:30:03 GMT
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Post by scattymare on May 11, 2009 11:16:32 GMT
Flea she looks fab.
Spotti, his saddle is good fit now (it's practically brand new and his owner had it fitted - it does have an interchangeable gullet so I can adjust as his shape changes - but yes you are right he does have a very deep dip behind his shoulder (its even more apparent in the pics cos we'd just ridden and he was a bit sweaty there, plus his winter coat is coming out where it gets warm!)
I just put that down to his age and lack of muscle tone but your right it could have been a poor saddle in the past?
I must point out that the first two pics do show him in a very bad light - I was trying to get an angle so you could see his ribs n all bony bits so slightly dodgy angle which I think makes him look far worse than he is (as you can see from the last ones)
It's just so tricky. All this lovely grass but I'm too scared to let him stuff himself. And the other two who despite already being on restricted grazing look as though they're 6 months pregnant!
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haffyfan
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Post by haffyfan on May 11, 2009 12:00:09 GMT
Scatty, I know his age is against him with his dipped back, muscle wastage etc but I think he looks rather wormy....To me he is the classic case of poor condition on top but with a huge bulging belly.
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Post by maximum on May 11, 2009 20:25:47 GMT
totally agree with haffy and rac - he really is underweight he would have a condition score of about 2-2.5 and you want about 3.5 ( 1 being at deaths door and 5 obese) Dont be tempted to introduce too much cereal - stick to the forage and add oil to his feed - it will give him a slow release of energy and help him to gain weight. sunlower oil fed at about a mug a day to start with with make a big change I am going to steal Ceej's thunder as she suggested www.equushealth.org.uk/?q=product-description&cat=2&pid=34to me when Max was a bit underweight and he went from this  to this  in 3 months with only the fenugreek and linseed and sunlower oil added to 3 small feeds a day of oats, sugar beet and alpha A. |
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Post by scattymare on May 12, 2009 7:52:23 GMT
Wow Maxi thats a real improvement. And look at the shine on his coat. I have requested a worm count kit to rule out the squirms. He has his own section now in the field which I can adjust to his needs so he can't stuff himself but can get some of the good stuff. May take a trip out at the weekend to one of the suppliers of the fenugreek.
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Post by maximum on May 12, 2009 20:02:21 GMT
its brilliant stuff scatty - ceej used it as well and I have passed it on to loads of people- the shine is down to that! (certainly not all the grooming he didnt get!)
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Post by scattymare on May 13, 2009 7:45:53 GMT
Any ideas where I can buy sunflower oil in bulk? The piddly bottles from the supermarket would cost a fortune! I'm a CostCo member - do you reckon they'd do it?
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Post by rebanna on May 13, 2009 18:02:02 GMT
cost co do it £10 for a massive thing of it
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Post by solomon on May 13, 2009 20:36:42 GMT
Pete has lost a bit since the winter ironically was wondering about adding oil to his feed does it fizz them up at all?  |
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Post by solomon on May 13, 2009 20:56:12 GMT
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Post by solomon on May 13, 2009 21:02:39 GMT
that didn't work!  |
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ceej
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Post by ceej on May 14, 2009 20:29:18 GMT
yup fenugreek and linseed is ace.  I personally wouldn't be riding him at all in that condition I would wait til mid summer to get a little more meat on his bones and maybe do soem work targeted at muscle work from the ground...or at least limit ridden work to short walking hack only to help his back muscle build up.... I agree that weight gain should be slow by way of increase in forage than hard feed - I maybe woudlnt use the show and condition; its not the right kind of conditioning...allen and paige do an absolutely fab range and a lady I pointed towards then used their weight gain with great results as it is slow gain rather than show condition - re grass - can you have a bit sectioned off just for him so he can get more each day than the others? Defo tape worm him. Not sure if the one you used was for tapweworm but do him again with just a tapewormer (not a mix), and also one that does encysted red worms as these are often forgotten (see my worming guide in FAQ's for makes that do each sort). Hope that helps - he is certainly looking better than when you got him, particularly over his rump where his spine was really prominant originally and as Brigs says (later) his dipped spine doesnt help with his look. I am not sure why he has such a dip and I woudl consider getting a decent physio out to look at that and they can also give you some good advice about how to build his back muscles up. well done you for getting an older rescue - he's lucky to have found you...x Modified to ask how old he is? |
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Post by maximum on May 16, 2009 9:59:14 GMT
solomon - yes Peter would benefit from oil - he is not skinny but maybe a touch light? oil will not fizz him - its a very slow release energy which is why its used by the endurance lobby a lot. the shine is a by product!
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Post by brigadier on May 16, 2009 15:06:29 GMT
Patrick looks as though he has had a saddle problem and quite a major one given the muscle wastage over his wither and back. Once you get some more condition on him (cant improve on any of the suggestions above) I personally would lunge him in elastic running reins, this will encourage him to stretch down from his back and build the muscles needed to support your weight. Its probably one of those situations when you DO need help from a gadget!
Its a shame re the dip in his spine as this makes his condition appear worse but he looks to be going the right way but I really would suggest some gentle lungeing before you do too much riding, although I dont think walk exercise will harm any (saddle fitting well a priority) and will help build more muscle as long as the forage is going in. Have you considered some long reining, again this will encourage him to stretch down over his back? If he was my responsibility my first priority would be worms, second forage and third building muscle where the saddle goes!
Good luck with him Scatty as he looks a really gentle kind sort! I love it when horses like him find someone who really cares!
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Post by scattymare on May 18, 2009 7:54:38 GMT
Thanks everyone for your advice and tips. As I said, those first two pics really do show a far worse situation than he is (they even shock me to see them and I see him everyday!) He has been in his own 'paddock' for a week now and I have introduced the oil - can't get the fenugreek anywhere near me. I am switching his feed to the Allen & Page weight gain which I think he finds fab - loved the small amount he got yesterday! Even a week on good grazing and there is some improvement. Worm count kit arrived on Saturday so I shall be poo selecting tonight!
Also have the vet for Sancy later (see poor Sancy) so will get her to give him a going over.
Brig good idea about long reining - his neck is quite 'upside down' I had thought of lunging but wasn't sure if it would be too good for him at his age?? I just want to wrap him in cotton wool!
Oh and I have also put his lightweight rug back on - I suspect he probably will feel the cold more - unfortunately I sometimes forget that not all horses are as tough as my rock 'ard Doof!
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Post by spotti on May 18, 2009 11:35:02 GMT
Just been having another nosey at the piccies after hearing you say his neck is rather "upside down" and I just wondered, does he throw his head around at all? Or carry his head up really high (stiff-necked and hollow backed)? If he does then that would explain his "upside down" neck shape and maybe go towards explaining the lack of back/wither muscle...for eiter of these, I'd recommend some back-stretching work where he works long, long and loose to stretch and build up those long-forgotten back muscles And as Ceej asked, how old is he? Does he have any joint problems/stiffness? Has anyone ever given you any reason not to get him working in circles? If the answer to all of above is NO then lungeing would probably help him more than hinder him (my ponio isn't supposed to do circles because of her back and pelvis and hocks but I think lungeing in a pessoa would work wonders for her back muscles...still, I'm not the expert  ) |
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Post by fleabitten on May 18, 2009 12:04:17 GMT
Yeah, I didnt lunge Connie because of her age - then again she was older. If I can remember Patrick is 22 - perhaps if you lunged on a large circle, like on the end of the lunge rein - that way you could still use the pessoa. I mean, if you can school him on a 20m circle then I think that he could manage to be lunged on a 20m circle or bigger. I think the suggestion of getting a physio out to him is a great idea - will give you a starting base before you jump into lungeing with the pessoa. Make sure theres no problems etc. I think his back is really just dippy because of old age - perhaps quite a large person rode him in the past? His back isnt going to go flat - its his spine thats dipping really and his lack of mucsle makes it look worse but I think it can be improved At least once you have got worms and back problems ruled out you can just stuff him with grass and yummy feed. I dont think a bit of hacking would do him a bit of harm - keeps him active and young! And the rug is a good idea too - youre braver than I am leaving them out naked - Kieran still has his flippin winter rugs on still - I dunno how were gonna wean him off! hmmm... |
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