Laminitis and haylage?

[kunuma]

Please tell me I am being totally paranoid - (not unusual as far as horses are concerned) but has anyone heard of haylage being a factor for laminitis?

[baymare]

yes i know that my friend lost one.it was february and not a blade of grass in sight but her horses had adlib haylage.very sadly fozzie got laminitas really bad and had to be pts..so please be carefull.i think it is to do with how rich it is.bay.

[ceej]

Mind you Willow got laminitis last february and it didnt look like the grass was growing...he wasnt on any haylage.

I think hay is better for the lami prone though...

[ceej]

here, frucans = glucose and glucose is one cause of lami (most common) :

Levels of 14-20% fructan in fresh grass are not uncommon. Haylage is likely to contain less fructan than grass because it has already started to ferment. Hay is likely to have levels between those of grass and haylage.

so this reads that haylage has less fructan than hay? Im off to read a nit more

[ceej]

finding lots of contradictiry info now... but generally I am finding it isnt about whether its hay or haylage, but when it was cut and what the grass is like - because it is about fructans, not nutrients (as far as I can see the fructans break down in haylage more than they do in hay as the fermenting process uses the sugar - but haylage does contain more protein so if your pony is prone to laminitis due to obesity, well soaked hay may be better):


Limit access to lush pastures either by limiting turnout time or by fencing off small areas with eg an electric fence. Consider using a muzzle, but only for limited periods as they can cause immense frustration, and only use them under supervision.

Avoid fertilised and frozen pasture.

Base feeding programmes on ample forage (eg late cut hay or haylage) and minimal concentrate. Using a cereal-free balancer can be very helpful.

Maximise the use of high-fibre feeds which produce slow-releasing energy in the hind gut eg alfalfa in various forms or blends, shredded beet pulp (discard the juice or use unmolassed), and pasture nuts.

Avoid feeds high in sugar eg molassed cobottom mixes and straw chops.

Avoid feeds high in starch ie cereals or cereal-based compound feeds. If their use is essential remember that cooked cereals are less likely to trigger a laminitic attack than raw cereals, micronised barley is the best.

Use soya or corn oil as a ‘safer’ energy source than cereals or cereal-based compound feeds. Oil is digested in the foregut and when fed at recommended levels will not upset the hindgut. High oil diets must be supplemented with anti-oxidants, principally vitamin E and selenium.

Where ‘hard’ feeds are needed provide them in small amounts ie little and often. Reduce the standard recommendations so that a 15hh horse for example never receives more than 3lbs (dry weight) of ‘hard’ feed in any one feed. The standard recommendation would be not to exceed 4lbs/feed.

Never make rapid changes in the diet eg do not suddenly turn out onto good pasture. Introduce it gradually. Similarly, make all changes to forage or hard feed gradually, over at least four days.

Avoid letting horses and ponies become obese. For showing, a well-furnished look with good topline can be achieved by feeding and working to build muscle with minimal use of cereal-based feeds.

Monitor the digital pulse daily to give you an early indication of imminent lameness. Better methods may be on the horizon.
Avoid unnecessary trauma to feet eg minimise trotting on roads and do not jump working hunters or show jumpers on hard ground.

Bear in mind that although native ponies and ‘good-doers’ are most susceptible, all types of horses and ponies can and do get laminitis.

[kunuma]

Yes, everything I have found so far has been contradictory - the mare has been fine for years on rationed grass - but the recent snow meant she had haylage - now suddenly my gut feeling is that she is starting a laminitic episode right out of the blue - and I didn't think the flattened yellow grass has started growing enough to worry about so I am shocked and worried!
It will mean her coming into a tiny paddock and being fed haylage, hence my panic over whether that is what has caused it!

[ceej]

well the recent snow and frost could be the cause rather than the haylage...

apparently the grass takes in the sun (energy) and rather than growing (because it is too cold) it stores that energy as fructans...so if you have had lots of frost that may be the trigger.

Its a tricky one - I dont think I have read anything yet conclusive enough to say either way...

[ceej]

just read this on laminitis trust

Cold weather. A few horses show laminitis during cold weather, fitting warm leg wraps during cold snaps prevents the problem in most cases.

Maybe you coudl write to them and ask?
www.laminitis.org/

[haffyfan]

Oh no....is it the older one?

I'm not sure regarding haylage, it certainly has more goodness (and rocket fuel) in it than hay and I have never known it be recommended for laminitics but at the same time I have never been told not to use it. I just don't trust it myself since harveys bochalism (sp) many years ago.

When Murph had his attack I had to feed him hay soaked to death so hardly any goodness was left in it. If I were you I would get her in/restricted and treat as if she is having an attack to be on the safe side. Can you get hold of any hay for her rather than the haylage? Shame your so far away as we have plenty still.

www.laminitisclinic.org/ proberly the same site ceej has linked actually. They have loads of information and a brilliant phone line you can ring (who answer all those niggly questions). When murph had lami along with the vet/farrier of course it was the helpline and Robert Eustaces book which got me through. You can read it online or I can lend you mine if it's easier to actually have it in your hands.

[kunuma]

Yes it is the 25 year old - she has been fine - but today - not - there is definitely something wrong. I am going to bring her down now and go over her feet - but I didn't like the way she had her back legs when standing earlier, and her body language says she is uncomfortable - she was OK in all the snow - this only started today!

[ceej]

with willow, if in doubt, I always asuume he has it....how is he to turn - its a sign if they cant cross their front legs over....

[haffyfan]

Well at least if it is lami you've caught it immediatly. The turing test is a good one to try if you haven't already.

Murph was instantly far more comfortable with frog supports fitted too (or you can improvise by rolling up gamgee and placing as you would a rubber style support). Can you soak haylage does anyone know? If you can't get her any hay maybe it would be an idea to soak the haylage she has (assuming this is a safe practise) to cut down on the nutrients in it.
Or alternatively use an approved forage replacer like HiFi lite for now possibly?

[spotti]

Well Faith (I know she doesn't really count as a 'real' example as she's prone to anything...she just attracts trouble that one!) seemed to have lami after one haynet of haylage. She had the remains of a friends haynet or haylage and then a few ours later she was standing in the 'lami stance' (feet tucked under her, sort of rocking from on foot to the other) and she's never had it since!!!! Scared the poop out of me so she's not allowed it anymore!

I once looked into lami and haylage/hay and seemed to get contradictory information - my guess is that no one really knows the cause of lami and so all info is based in theories and personal experience/opinion.

[baymare]

well if you are worried then get her in.even just in case.my pony came in slightly lame on a hind leg last year and the vet said it was laminitas.so go into laminitas mode and call the vet.then you know you have done the right thing.bay.

[ceej]

I though lami normally shows on the front feet, not the hind or am I wrong...makes more sense to be in any foot..?

chances are of course it could be bruising from all the hard ground - maybe even an abcsyss (foul smelling poopy I can never spell that) on the way?

[haffyfan]

Murph had it in all four feet Ceej, he went from fine one day to rooted to the spot. I couldn't believe how quickly it happens, his second attack during the same year was much the same, he had been perfectly fine and sound in the AM, farrier came at lunchtime and he was ever so slightly favouring one leg, no heat, no pulses, even farrier thought it was not conected (and he specialises (*sp) in remedial stuff) but we treated it as lami just incase and next morning again wam back to stage one and all but rooted.

[kunuma]

Thanks for all your replies.

Yes, like Haffy's boy she had it in all four, but most badly in the hind feet, they were the ones in which the pedal bone rotated and came very close to coming through her soles.
Since I have been caring for her we have been OK, had the odd abcess from WLD etc, but this is the first time I have been worried the lami has returned.
Spent all afternoon crawling round under her looking for pulses! She does have a pulse in one back foot, and I normally can't find any, so that is not good.
I've looked closely at the grass, and there are little green tips coming through the yellow in places, so I'm not moving the strip fencing any more.
There isn't much chance of getting any hay, (that's why they have been on the haylage) and she reacts badly to molassed anything - but after reading those sites, R Eustace doesn't like haylage and recommends Alfalfa -so perhaps I can get some of that locally.
The more I read today, the more confused I got!

[stillonly1wu]

My Travers got lami in February when there was no grass at all to speak of. But it was very frosty, so many fructans in what bit of grass there was. Also he spent much of the day eating a Xmas tree that out neighbour had planted too close to the fence, which caused a toxaemic reaction. His pal, who also had a meal of the tree, got serious colic.

You don't say if she had treatment. If she is starting an episode then cut 5 layers of gamgee into a frog shape and bandage it tight across the frog. This will help if she is beginning to founder. Keep her in on a deep bed. Feed her nothing with molasses in it and no carrots.

I know it's pricey, but she can also have Happy Hoof (Spillers), Dengie Healthy Hooves and Speedibeet.

Good Luck

[joandlad]

This site should answer some of your questions:

www.saftergrass.org

Take a look at this article in particular:

www.safergrass.org/articles/nfcfactors.html

It sounds like she may be susceptible to high fructans as a result of the recent frosts we've had. One of my client's horses is now being kept off frosty grass as she's showing laminitic signs and we think it's down to the frosts. There are lots of horses showing lami signs at the moment. I think it's a probably combination of frosts (metabolic) and very hard ground (concussive) when we had the snow.

Yes you can soak haylage. But haylage is just the same as hay in that the levels of glucose and fructans will depend on the type of grass it's made from and the time of year it is cut.

If you are at all suspicious that she is not right definitely keep her in, especially if she has a raised pulse. Don't even think of turning her out until she's been pulse free for at least 2 days. Better safe than sorry where laminitis is concerned.