Naughty Ronan has decided he won't load.........

[ronansmum]

I have had the trailer 5 weeks and have taken him to the beach twice.

First time he walked on at the yard first time, but messed about for about 5 minutes when loading at the beach.

On Friday, the second outing, he was tricky to load at the yad, wouldn't go up the ramp until finally he decideed he would. He isn't frightened, just thrawn - a good Scottish word meaning pig headed basically...

On the return trip OH grazed him while I got the boots together, the tack back into the pack etc....then led him to the ramp, again he wouldn't go in, peeing with rain and blowing a gale but no, he wouldn't. He messed about for about 45 minutes and then suddenly he walked on...just walked up the ramp and in!!

Today I wanted to bring him to those "famous pitches" just opposite my house, a mere 10 minutes by trailer, but no he wouldn't play again......even though the sun was out, it was beautiful, hot and bright, perfick for an outing.

Tried the bridle. tried carrot bribery, tried a smack with a lunge whip, and once again out of the blue, he suddenly walked on. Today though I couldn't face the nightmare return trip so took him off with the view that if he walked straght on again, that would be the clear signal that he was ok.. ;D and we had cracked it.

But he wouldn't..he was worse than ever. He just would not go anywhere near the ramp, so after another 45 minutes we gave up and I rode him in the school.

He is a lovely ride and brilliant to handle but this is a real problem. My pal who is teaching me to jump etc and helping me generally with him (she has decades of experience and a ot of success showjumping) has said she will sort him out, "he needs a smack" she said..a real smack.

What is your experience, please if you have had this problem?. Is this a travelling thing, a claustrophobic thing or what? His previous owner said he preferred a lorry but would, if you were firm, go in a trailer.. Firm? does that equal brutal? Or what? I have always believed a horse needs sensitive handling and there is a reason if he won't co operate, I also think bullying will NEVER work.

I am a bit novicey but I also think I am fair and firm..well firmish..

Don't get me wrong - I think Pat Parelli talks sense but I am not a fan in the sense that I woiuld play games etc with my horse, but can you think of a "kind" way of solving this? Or if he gets a good smack, will that sort it?

Can anyone suggest anything?

[fimacg]

This sounds like Chompy 1hr 49 minutes is his worst.

Take everything out of the trailer including the partitions, open the ramps and the jockey door, take a good book at wait in the trailer with a little pressure on the rope and a bucket of feed in the middle of the floor.

let him come in have a mouth full of feed and then slide the feed closer to teh front until he walks in, the reward with his favourite treat and a pet.

Go out of the front and do it again straight away. He will probably hesitate again but do the same thing until he is walking on and off the trailer straight away. Do it 10 times and them put him away.

Do this every night for 2 weeks and you will solve it. Just don't forget your book.

[maximum]

go with ficmag.

I have found that the thrawn ones do NOT react to a good smack, it makes them worse in some cases. I would also try a pressure halter, you will need to teach him about moving away from the pressure before you load with it but it is worth it.

do it when you have no other pressures and plenty time. theres no rush and take your time.

Fallible has the same proble and is taking her time and is getting there- same stubborn type- horse that is not Fallible although...... she is not on much at the mo but she would worth a PM.

[racaille]

Can't add any other advice as the above seems right (although I will confess that when Paco was going through he 'I WON'T get into THAT!' phase I did resort to a tickle behind the bum with a dressage stick).
Now Paco loads fine and I think it's because he haas (finally) worked out that the terror of a trailer (he still sweats like a pig on even the shortest journeys) is followed by fun or by going home. And at the beginning I took him on several 10 minute journeys to nowhere, just to get him used to the motion of the trailer, followed by excesssive treats back home! ;D
Oh, there is one thing that we use with some success: if the horse stops just in front of the ramp and refuses to budge, we will often pick up one front foot and put it on the ramp for him. Then we leave him a moment to think about it, then put the other front hoof etc. Then move the back feet forward individually. Obviously this only works with a horse that won't move, rather than one plunging and diving! Usually once the two front feet are on, he goes in OK - perhaps it's just the initial sensation of the metal ramp, I don't know.
Anyway, just wanted to offer a few words of encouragement. If Paco (the world's most stubborn horse) can learn to load, Ronan will be a pro in no time!

[brigadier]

OK here is the solution but you need to be patient!

First you need to learn where the pressure point is at the bottom of the neck on the chest- if you press with your fingers with a straight hand your fingers will disappear into the recess made by his shoulder and neck- this is really sensitive (Im posting a picture tonight for Suzii so look out for it!), you then tell your horse to go back and make him walk back a few paces, pressing as you do so, then reward- practice this a few times well away from the trailer so that he understands what you are wanting.

Next get your trailer ready whichever way you prefer- as the above posts is good!

Choose a day when youve no rush on and wear a watch (really important)

Check the time! Then with your horse wearing either a control headcollar or a bridle walk him towards the ramp normally as though theres no problem- dont look at him. As soon as he plants his feet, put your stiff fingers into the chest recess and make him walk backwards a fair distance (ten strides) then walk him forwards again to the ramp, as soon as he plants his feet (even if he is half way up the ramp) put your fingers in his chest and make him walk backwards, then walk him forwards again. You must repeat this as many times as necessary- you dont need a whip or to shout or smack (I agree this will make him worse- you just need to outsmart him).

This always works because horses dont like going backwards because it puts strain on their hind legs and they cant see. The trick is to make him do something kindly he prefers less- he will quickly learn going into the trailer is the best option. Once in make a fuss- feed etc.

Always revert to this method no matter what happens. If he plays up going backwards youre not pressing hard enough into his chest- use the blunt end of a short stick if it hurts your fingers.

The watch is so you can really see how long it is taking as whilst you are doing it, it will seem for ages but in reality it will take about twenty minutes the first time then less progressively.

Good luck and look out for the pressure point post tonight.

Brig

[racaille]

PS I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here: I don't think 'a smack' necessarily equates with bullying. (but we are not talking about beating here, OK?) I'm not sure that it would necessarily work in this case, but there are times when a stick is invaluable as an extra aid.
It may be that I have a rather old-fashioned attitude to my boys but I don't want to be partners with them, their mates. I have to be the boss. I HAVE to be, because they are much bigger and stronger than I am and when, for instance, I am all alone in the middle of the mountains, I have to know my horse will do as I tell him (they are geldings, so tell is the right word! ;D) I love them desperately, and I know that they love me in their pea-brained horsey way. But I think that's the important thing: horses cannot reason in the way we do and we have to accept that, I think it's a mistake to anthropomorphize them.
Phew, that was a treatise and now I'll sit back and watch WW3 break out .... ;D

[ronansmum]

Thank you so much, all of you!!!

Fi, yes that was my whole plan, to keep walking him on and off until he was sick of it, treated it as nothing, and just did it. I am amazed at you patience but I can see now that you do need the patience of a SAINT!!! 1 hr 49 minutes? Didn't you feel like killing him??

Maxi, yes I agree, it occurred to me that hitting wouldn't really help, he saw the lunge whip and neatly skipped away but the second time my aim was better and he was very resentful..........he did go up a bit and at 17 hands it isn't funny.

Brig, that sounds very good advice, yesterday backing up wouldn't have been a goer, my pal's car was parked rather too close to all these shenanigans. Which is another good point you have made, all of you, i.e. take my time and prepare properly!!

I am a bit of a hope for the best type person and it lets me down.........

I am going to read and digest your post about pressure points, Brig - it sounds complicated but effective. ;D


Rac, oh bless you, I know exactly what you mean, my pal would agree with you totally. She would say and has said exactly the same thing, i.e. horses need to be told and not negotiated with (unless they are a stallion.. ). It is a bit unfortunate, every time I have had a problem she hasn't been there. The very first time I tried him seh was there and was all set to smack his bottom as he went up the ramp, but he walked straight on and she laughed, "Oh such a bad loader that horse!!"

She thinks Ro is a brilliant horse and really likes him, but when I was telling her last evening about his carry on she said "it is my pet hate, horses that won't load..." and there was such a glint in her eye, I feel a bit sorry for him, she takes no prisoners. But I am going to suggest that we try these other methods first.

Anyway thanks all of you, I am very grateful and will report back with good news hopefully before too long.

Karma for all of you, but it'll take a day or two, what with the restrictions on how many you can give. ;D

[joandlad]

If you get to the stage where you are considering a smack you've either asked the wrong question or asked the question wrong. It's not in a horse's nature to put up a fight unless it feels it has no other option. So, you need to figure out why he feels he has no other option. My old boy was the worst traveller that I have ever encountered. We ended up reversing the lorry to the door of his stable and beating him in when I left school and moved house. It was one of the worse days of my life. I had to walk away in tears. But it was that or sell him. Did it make him realise that he'd be better of just going in next time - Hell No!! It quite rightly made him even more afraid. But it certainly taught me a lot.

Give the trailer a thorough check. Make sure the floor is in perfect condition. Go for a short ride in the back of the traIler (without the horse in it!). This will soon show up any reasons why your horse is not wanting to go in it eg: rattling ramps, jockey door etc. If you travel him on his own it's worth investing in a single breast and breech bar. There are been many studies showing that horses travel much better if they are given the space to stabilise themselves and usually place themselves on the diagonal. I'd also recommend using bandages instead of the big travelling boots (if that's what you use). The boots sometimes slip and cause the horse to panic.

I always work with a pressure haulter. But you need to teach him first how to release himself to the pressure and you need to learn perfect timing! I can e-mail you over a text file with the exercises I use if you PM me your e-mail addy. Once he understands how to release the pressure you can work with him at home at the trailer. You are the one who is in charge of speed, direction and destination - that includes when to stand still and when to back up. So, you ask with the pressure and hold it til you get the response you want and release the second you get it. It won't take him long to realise that it's comfortable when he does what you want and uncomfortable when he does what you don't want. Remember that a horse is very stable from front to back, but very unstable from side to side. So if he plants himself, pull him off balance on an angle and release the second he moves - even if it's not in the desired direction. As far as a horse is concerned, whoever is in charge of movement is in charge of everything! So, don't get to the stage where he's not moving. Loading and travelling is a massive topic and it's hard to get everything across in 1 post! So I'm sure there is loads I've not said.

[spotti]

I saw this and immediately thought "Oh, somewhere I can help" but Brig seems to have explained it brilliantly (as always, hence being a resident expert! ) in a nice way that even I use, and trust me here, it does work! Although like previously said, you need to work on perfect timing and practise often, even if its just to walk through the trailer or going round the block...it all adds up to experience.

What I've found with horses is that positive reinforcement is the best way to motivate them to do what you want them to do i.e. load, so ingore the bad behaviour (to an extent, becasue if it becomes dangerous then you need to let them knoe its not acceptable) and overly praise the good behaviour, that way, the horse will choose the 'easy' way with lots of praise and won't even think of going down the 'bad' route because he'll know its diffuclt and uncomfortable. As Monty Roberts says, "A horse will always choose the path of least resistance" i.e. the easy way!
Another thing to remember is it only takes a second to destroy confidence (either horse or riders) but takes months and months to regain it, so a single bad experience can takes a long time to get over.

If you remain calm but assertive (ever seen 'The Dog Whisperer'?) with a good energy then you'll go far. Just remember that and you should be fine.

[ronansmum]

Thanks Jo, yes I do realise there is something wrong but he isn't frightened I can assure you of that. His face it totally relaxed and when he does walk on it is in a very relaxed laid back way!! Just sallies forth so to speak.

The trailer is brand new, it's a 511 which is the latest IW model with a high ceiling and very airy and light.

Yes I think opening the jockey door might help, I do open the front ramp to let him see, I also hang a nice haynet for him.

I have heard that some horses do like to travel in a straddled postion, I had assumed he might prefer the security of the partition but maybe not. Something isn't pleasing him.

He kicks like mad but only when we stop for lights, roundabouts etc, , people have said that is because he thinks "he's there" and wants top "get on with it"., and he was certainly very excited at the beach on Friday, jumping around while I was tacking him up.

Yes it seems to be a very big subject.

My last horse, a wee mare, was a total bitch in all areas, except loading...........weird innit?

[aimee]

OMG we had all this problems with Fern!

We had to take her to the vets and we had about an hour and a half to load and travel there, But No way was she getting into that box!!!

I could tell by her face she was not frightened at all, she was perfectly relaxed! she was just playing up! She had been travelled from Poland FFS! (OH did say that the only times she had ever been in a trailer was to be moved to a new home, bless her, so wonder if she thought she was going away which is why she didnt want to go in trailer??) Anyway!
Needless to say we was late to the vets, and we was just going to give up! We had tried the walking up and back and up and back without a break until I thought I was gonna pass out! that didnt work! Then we had 2 lunge lines crossed over her bum, that didn't work, we piled straw bales each side of the trailer so she couldn't jump off ramp and took middle partition out, nope didn't work. we had 2 people at either side of her with a schooling whip, not worked! Moved each of her feet up the ramp, nope, Screamed, shouted, begged, cried, pleaded with her, that didnt work! In the end we gave up, and I was sat on the wall on the phone to the vet making another appointment and OH was sitting on the floor of the trailer with a box of treats, it was all quiet and calm, and she walked in! I could have killed her! But it does show that pushing and forcing a horse to do something will just make them dig their heels in even more!

Looking forward to hearing the pressure point post! Hopefully will help us too!

[fimacg]

Aimee I have been through all that too with Chompy, hence my recommendation of a good book.

However when he does go in you do have to repeat the exercise every day for at least two weeks or the next time you want to load it is back to square 1. I also made that mistake.

[fimacg]

I meant to add I always travel Chompy as his in always on his own with just a full with breast bar.

[Becca]

totally agree, repeat repeat and repeat again! once he is happy to walk through without a pause, feed him on it groom him on it, tie him in it while you muck out, what ever you do make sure you make it a calm pleasent experience for him. good idea about the book fi, will make the time pass quicker

[ronansmum]

Yes that was the plan Becca, when he walked on yesterday I was going to keep doing it, til he got sock of it and treated it as nothing much, but he had other ideas....

I think I shall ask Pam if we can give it a go today, take the partition out etc...and try to get him on.

But we are off on holiday next week so do you think I might as well just leave it til after we get back now??

Or does that smack of cowardice???

[abi]

is he a pain when your friend tries to load him?

we had problems at first but it wasnt a fear of the trailer- it was my handling. Sox knew she could mess about, so wouldnt go in. When my instructor tried, and was more firm, she walked straight in!

could you leave your trailer in his field? it could be a field shelter with hay in, he wouldnt hate it then! Give him his tea in the trailer a few times too, make it a really enjoyable experience with lots of food and fuss!

x

[ronansmum]

Thanks abi. ;D

My OH and I are the only ones who have tried really, and we are pretty useless, although he did walk straight in with me first time, in fact the first couple of times. I am expecting and hoping (to save his skin really ) that he will walk straight in when Pam gets a hold of him!!

Can't put it in the field I am afraid, the gates aren't wide enough and in any case I really don't believe he is afraid, he is just being a very naughty boy, because he can...he can take the rise out of his mum and dad and he knows he can get away with it...

Thank you everyone, you have all been really great and very helpful. ;D ;D I have some good advice and starting pounts, the amon thing I think is not to try to load him on my own again, i.e. without expert help.

[silverstirrups]

Lots of good advice here, and some I'm not so sure about.
When I bought my first horse (10 years ago) the lady who owned him said she would load him for me when I went to collect him as he trusted her. It took about 20 minutes, just trying over and over again, very calmly until he went in.
When I tried it at home.........................forget it He was an absolute pig. We've done the 'over an hour' thing, with a little voice at the back of my head saying 'if you give up he's won'. But at some point you have to give up or someone would discover you both next morning asleep at the bottom of the ramp ;D Plus, the longer it takes, the more you start to lose your temper and thats a really bad idea.
What I did was find a man with the kind of trailer that everything came out of and the ramp came off, because the ramp can be the real sticking point. He did a bit of join up stuff and then, with everything off the trailer and all open at the front, loaded him. Without too much trouble. Over the next hour he gradually put bits of the trailer back and kept loading him until we got to the point where he was walking up the ramp with the partition in its proper place and the front all closed. No problem ;D WOW Then I had to do it and it worked.
That wasn't the end of my problems because then he had to load into my trailer and we were almost back to square one. But I knew he wasn't scared so I used a pressure halter (still do) and just kept trying. He was much better after the training so I knew he'd load. We found the best way was to block off the sides of the ramp (as he would dance round the ramp) by parking next to a fence and using pallets the other side, open up the front completely, move the partition over and walk purposefully towards the ramp. Never face the horse, even if he stops, just keep asking for walk and if he won't, circle and try again. Putting his feet on the ramp can sometimes help. I also found my OH useful as my horse had always been handled by women and that strong male voice behind him really helped, especially backed up by a tap with a schooling whip. But be careful not to get the horse stressed and wound up or you will lose.
The going backwards thing was a disaster for my horse as he understood that I wanted him to go into the trailer and just got really confused by the fact that all of a sudden I was saying 'actually no, go backwards instead!' He got very upset but I saw Kelly Marks use this method at a Your Horse demo and it worked.
10 years on he is soooooooo much better, to the extent I can load him on my own. Sometimes he prats about a bit but thats only if he hasn't been on for a while. So you need to load regularly, it really helps. And having the trust of your horse.
Sorry to go on for so long but I know how frustrating this problem is but it is curable. And yes, work on it lots before you go away, then your horse can think about it while you're gone. That can help too.
Good luck

[maximum]

please please DONT use pallets at the side of the ramp or park beside a fence. I have sen a horse go up and come down half over the fence and seen a horse gallop off with a wooden gate through its front legs. it is very dangerous. a solid wall at least 8ft high is fine but nothing else.

I want to be clear that i have no problem giving a naughty horse a good ruddy belt but I have found with stubborn horses it just does not work. I agree you need to be the boss but sometimes that means out-thinking them rather than beating them into submission.( not that I am saying any of the lovely people here would do that!) I am tough and more thrawn than any horse I ever met and have spent hours loading a horse rather than leave it but theres more than one way to skin a cat and its finding what works. As jo says the pressure halter only works once you have taught them how to work with it.

I suspect he has picked up on your inexperiance and thought 'aye aye time for some fun'

[silverstirrups]

I guess it depends on your horse. Mine will back off any kind of barricade rather than go through it which is why the fence worked for me. Very rarely used a pallet - more desperation than anything!
I still park next to a fence at shows if I can. It just removes one more option for my horse. I understand what you're saying but its horses for courses!

[kateflashy]

harvey is the worlds worse for loading , will not even get within 6 ft of a trailer, and only just goes on a lorry, the trick is to allow an hour to load him, lead to the ramp and wait , i normally put on a long rope and just sit on top of ramp , if anyone goes near him he just rearsand buggers off, or if you pull on the headcoller , even the tiniest bit , he does the same , normally after 15 mins he walks straight in as good as gold , but he has to be left compleatly alone , and if your in a hurry , forget it , harvey wont be going

[arumanii]

Lol -this made me laugh -not bcoz of ur problems but bcoz we've all had loads of the same frustrating experiences loading and STILL haven't figured out one master plan solution to outwit the horse that somehow knows that we are in a hurry n needed them on the trailor ten minutes ago!

My friend's horse took the piss one day after a show n wouldn't go back in so she tied her outside n came to find me to assist. Whilst pretty much a stranger to her (my OH who doesn't 'do' horses) untied her n lead her straight in with no probs as he was trying to hurry us up n get back to the tv!

U gotta luv 'em!

[ronansmum]

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I am so glad I put this threda on guys.... quite apart from all the help and good advice I have received, we all seem to have had a bit of a laugh!!! ;D ;D

Great levellers horses, aren't they? ;D

And yep arumani, you've gotta love em.....pricless they are!!

[joandlad]

This is going to sound "evangelical" and like "I'm holyier than though", it's not intended in that way at all and it comes from someone who had a horse that wouldn't load for 22 years, so I feel fully qualified to say this. If a horse won't go into a trailer the crux of the matter is that there is something which is causing this to happen. It's not just the old "taking the p!ss". Horses don't have the emotions we have so cannot just "take the p!ss" - there is always an underlying reason. We HAVE to work out what the reason is. I've seen (and experienced) horse's that start off with a genuine reason eg anxious in closed in spaces, badly driven trailer, unsafe trailer, too big for trailer, had accident, bullied by travelling companion, herd bound, had previous uncomfortable long journey, lack of leadership, lack of trust etc, etc, etc. These reasons can manifest themselves as just a slight reluctance at first but they will soon spiral if the underlying reason isn't dealt with. As I say, it took me 22 years to finally realise this and deal with it. It's one of the biggest regrets of my life that I missed taking my boy out and about and by the time we were on the road to getting it sorted he was 32yrs old!

[ceej]

I agree...loading is one of the best areas where you can truely determine your horses take on life and I dont believe horses generally play up for the sake of it. Think about the first time a horse has to load...generally it leaves the place it was born and never comes back = bad experience no 1 (even if the new home is great, the fear and anxiety experienced will be remembered next time so the second time has to be a calm experience too.

Travelling to a horse is a huge thing. The issues can be from fear of going in, to fear of the ramp going up, to fear of the actual travelling - all sorts.

I remember when you took Murphy Jo, and the look of surprise on your face when he loaded straight away!!!...3rd time he had ever been in a box, and it was a steep lorry at that! but why wouldnt he? he didnt have any bad experiences to go by. I know when he was first put in a box it was quiet and calm and it took 30 minutes of patient waiting. Had a stick been used then he would have remebered that experience as very bad for the rest of his days.

I agree also with whoever said go for a ride in your own trailer! Who knows what awful noises it makes! How is your driving? Have you braked just that little bit hard and sent the horses forward a bit quick? Its a damn site easier to make travelling a bad experience than good. I agree about horses not really taking the piss when it comes to loading.

The probelm is, particularly with horses who are getting worse at loading, there is probably something that is frightening them that bit more every time they travel. Just beacuse a horse doesnt look frightened, doesnt mean they are not stressing out about it. All horses look different under pressure. Our Ben (RIP) always looked really calm BUT we knew when he was stressed because his mouth hardened (persed lips bless him!).

I have never had a 'bad' loader. I have had to wait 40 minutes to load my mums TB (even though her best mate was already in it.) She was 13 and the only other time she had been in a trailer was when she arrived as an 8 month old, and by the cut on the womans head I would say it hadnt gone well!!! So we waited. step by inching step. eventually she walked in. No sweat, no fear, just took time. It will take less time next time.

Arumanni I would say your friends horse was getting stressed vibes from your friend, rather than being naughty. Also, the being in a hurry thing - its probably not becsue the horse is thinking Ha, you are in a hurry so I am going to be difficult, more like the horse is thinking, foul smelling poopy, she is running around and I can feel stress coming from her...I aint going in THAT dark hole there must be a lion for her to be so hurried!! I think you have hit the nail right on the head there! and this is what I think your problem is Ronansmum...

I think maybe you have worked yourself up a bit. You were previosuly having problems driving the trailer weren't you so I think you are automatically feeling that stress when you are loading and passing it on...

Lots of people offering help does NOT help as it takes away the calm atmosphere and stresses you out even more. I am not saying its your fault but I can imagine the scene and you feeling anxious - things like that can spiral, and horses feel it so quick. I recon you should do the patience game after lots of prep so there is lots of space a nd no people etc (wear your hat). No pressure on you because you are not going anywhere - however long it takes, load him, gently, then feed him in there, then take him out. progress to 10 minute drives where you go home again.

By taking it slowly you are allowing the situation to become calmer for BOTH of you as this is an issue you have together methinks.